morning

yay!

(/◔ ◡ ◔)/

My "yay!" is due entirely to finally being able to install WIndows 10 17666 after 36 hours of failures (and 17661 restarted Windows Explorer every two minutes so it was next to useless).

(but it's bedtime here)

o/

Happy Friday

morning you krazy katz

måning y'all

moin moin

> måning y’all ! I solved a mystery

Hello

for too long has the English grammar (spelling rather) confused the issue

do tell!

people don’t wish each other “good morning”. they say “good moaning”.

I thought they just looked at each other in disgust and grunted

(which is then followed by a conversation about weather, wrong kind of leaves, and other customary subjects)

you grunt when you don’t feel neighbourly

I still have a lot to learn about british culture it seems

Morning 🙂

I felt as though this was an early start for me, but y'all have been up and at 'em far longer as far as I can tell!

https://memegenerator.net/img/images/8859775.jpg Good moaning

@lady3janepl did my use of scandi å (å sounds like the aw in paw so is phonetically correct for "morning" sounded without rolled r) help solve the mystery ?

I like being really chipper in the morning - partly to convince myself that the world won't end given that I've not had enough coffee yet and partly because living in the UK has turned me into a complete wind up merchant

@mccraigmccraig I'm always disappointed you aren't more rhotic

😂

@otfrom all those universes in which you don't have coffee end up rather badly

I've given up caffeine 3 years ago

what

no I lie, I've given up coffee 3 years ago and caffeine last year

Happy day.

i can do rhotic if it pleases you @otfrom

you can roll your r's?

yes

i can't skarre very well though

but what about espressos

i keep giving up caffeine, but i keep falling off the wagon too. seems i just like the taste of coffee

I need to prevent Parkinson's

so keep giving me the coffee

yes it makes my heart cry everytime I smell that sweet coffee smell

@bronsa 100%, I stopped drinking it four years ago, not by choice, when you walk past a love fresh pot it's just not fair

yeah I quit because of stomach pains + insomnia, it's so unjust

@mccraigmccraig yes, you’re the source of enlightenment:D

they need to invent a form of coffee where you inhale it it always smells better than it tastes

What’s the other thing called though

but how @lady3janepl?

Guarana?

Have you ever found that working?

like caffeine but nastier 🙂

so true @danieleneal

startup idea

I tried dandelion coffee. Once.

You can get no caf grain coffee (try Polish or health shops), that’s good

But doesn’t smell like proper coffee :(

whoa

In the case of coffee, the taste is also hampered by the fact that 300 of the 631 chemicals that combine to form its complex aroma are wiped out by saliva, causing the flavour to change before we swallow it, Prof Smith added.

Mind blown... can we get a chemist to help with it?

Coffee's OK, but I generally prefer a good earl grey

Don't have it at work though, because we don't have a proper kettle

Those zip taps don't quite cut it for tea-making. One needs a kettle for a proper cup of brown joy.

Indeed

Cup of brown joy? Are you a Prof. Elemental fan?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eELH0ivexKA

(I'm not, personally, but a number of my mates are)

I wouldn't count myself an ardent fan, but I'm aware of his works. 🙂

Has anyone here played with GraalVM yet?

there's a #graalvm channel

a bunch of people have

@bronsa Thanks - I'll take a look!

Good moaning

I agree, ziptaps make tea taste a bit weird

but coffee isn’t? the ancestors are turning over in their graves so fast that they generate electricity

(…wait. did they bury or cremate them in here?)

Regular tea is meh, though my wife seems to live on it. Earl Grey is 👌:skin-tone-2:, but she's allergic to it 😞

Also I drink it with milk and sugar, which a lot of people seem to think is weird

i've resorted to earl grey with two bags and milk when i've run out of other caffeinated beverages. it's ok, not much better or worse than builder's tea, but a pale shadow of the magnificent flavour of that first double-creamed & lengthened double-espresso

@lady3janepl i suspect my dour ancestors have long since given up on me

I live on builders tea

NATO standard. Milk + two

lol

I do like chai lattes as well. One of these days I'll have to try a proper chai. We have one team member from India and another from Pakistan and both have espoused the joy of proper chai where milk + a lot of sugar is kept on a rolling simmer and the tea leaves are steeped in it for a long time

Usually Assam or Darjeeling for me, occasionally Oolong. Loose leaf. Milk first.

Milk first? Heathen! 😆

And proud of it! 🙂

only CHF38 - what excellent value: https://www.iso.org/standard/8250.html

how about chilli chocolate? I keep trying to convert people but the general populace remains sceptical 😞

There's a Tom Scott video about that - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAsrsMPftOI

I have tried chilli chocolate, but am not generally a fan. In my experience it's generally dark choc that get chilli'd, and I'm not actually big on chocolate. It's just a really convenient cream+sugar delivery mechanism when it's milk choc or whatever

I like chilli chocolate

but I also like 85% and higher chocolate

> convenient cream+sugar delivery mechanism XD

how about, y’know, cheesecake

or buttercream

why bother with adding liquid at all?

Mmmm.... Cheeeeesecake 😋

Mmmm..... Chocolate 😋

i like chilli chocolate and cheesecake both

Mmmm..... Both 😋

Well I do sometimes just eat buttercream, or peppermint wafer mix (butter, icing sugar, bit of peppermint essence)

I may need to get in my car to sort out this sugar addiction soon

I'm guessing you'd like a good peppermint tart then Dan?

When I was a teen my lunch at the bakery I worked at on weekends was a Cornish Pasty and a 1kg block of regalice ready to roll white icing. I'm not sure how I didn't die (or become diabetic). I tried it about 10 years ago, when I was 23-24, and got a massive sugar hangover and felt crap for days

Oh yes

1kg of royal icing @carr0t - that's very impressive!

We don't get Peppermint Crisps here, but... http://www.picknpay.co.za/recipe-search-results/peppermint-crisp-tarthttp://www.picknpay.co.za/recipe-search-results/peppermint-crisp-tart

you must have the pancreas of thor

had, possibly. Like I said, can't do it any more 😉

they don’t make icing like they used to… (edible in large quantities)

Isn't that what this is for @lady3janepl? https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/gb/groceries/betty-crocker-vanilla-butter-cream-icing-450g

_,,,_ O_O _,,,_

damn it, formatting

anyway

if I die of diabetes it’s on your head

I think I've eaten what was left of a tub of that after a cake was iced, but never a full tub

(…also I’ll be baking carrot cake this Sunday and that requires buttercream, and I always make too much buttercream…)

in conclusion: how are we all still alive?!

When I was still living at home, since I was about 7 or 8, my favourite dessert was always syrup sponge. This is because it was dead easy to make in the microwave and only took about 10 mins, so I was allowed to do it myself. I always made a double batch of the mix and ate half

Also, yes, that, how are we still alive?

I used to enjoy a Sussex Pond Pudding. The sort of thing a wasp would turn down as "a bit on the sweet side for me". :face_with_rolling_eyes: Not much in it other than sugar, fat and a lemon.

side note: I’m trying to figure out an alternative convention for naming predicates in a language that doesn’t support ? in symbol names

turns out it does support Unicode characters, and there are Unicode question marks that are not question marks.

I’m not gonna use that in prod code because someone would kill me, but … fingers itching now I found out XD

The usual practice in Java was to prefix things with "is" or "has". Can't say that I was ever enamoured of that approach.

emacs style p ?

thisp thatp ?

hahah @otfrom I was gonna suggest the same

(which I understand is short for perhaps?)

I always thought it was for predicate

yeah, I’m gonna go for is/has, it’s the established convention

re: perhaps, isn’t Haskell’s Maybe a great name? Maybe Int. Who knows? ¯\(ツ)/¯

IIUC Maybe is a type rather than a predicate

is is good

(others are haskellers. I'm just an outsider trying to follow along)

I know, but I still like the name 🙂 it makes function signatures read much better

(I’m halfway through a Haskell uni course, so I can’t claim any fluency either. just aesthetically nice.)

Isn't Maybe sort of like Java's Optional? Or do they did different things?

they are the same monad yes

some languages use Maybe:Nothing/Just, some use Option:None/Some

but it's different names for the same thing

I think C# calls it Nullable

Argh, wall of text

wikipedia is never the best learning resource IMO

@carr0t i know i shouldn't, but: a monad is a "container" type and a way of composing sequences of operations on the contained values, one neat thing is that the sequence composition can use properties of the type, so with e.g. Maybe you get short-circuiting behaviour when the contained value is Nothing

See, that's a simple explanation I can understand. I know the concept, I use them all the time, but every time I try to find anything explaining what a Monad actually is it gets into all sorts of mathsy terms I don't know either

you probably shouldn’t jump from Maybe to monad

Maybe is just a sum type of Nothing or Just <value>. It has various instances defined for it in haskell like Functor, Applicative, Monad that get more complicated to understand

Yup, 2 more words I don't know the meaning of 😉

My brain is essentially a forgetful functor. :face_with_rolling_eyes:

This is like how I still don't know the difference between a verb, noun, adjective etc. I know how to use them correctly, but I can't say which one a given word is or what the defining properties of one or the other is. People have explained it hundreds of times, and it just never stays in. As long as I can use them correctly my brain just discards the info as unimportant

as long as you don't become a writer :)

Yeah listening to other people’s explanation doesn’t really make you learn these things. It’s much better to implement them yourself, starting with the simplest

“Let’s verbs those adjective nouns, adverbly!”

I don't think I'd need to know them to be a writer, tbh

As long as you can use them correctly, when is it important for a writer to know they type of each word in a sentence or similar?

oh I'm not saying you can't write (clearly you can, you're doing it right now), but I have a hard time believing that you can be a serious writer without any understanding of grammar. Sure there might be exceptions, after all there's plenty of musicians who can't read music or don't understand music theory, but having that knowledge allows gives you a broader bag of tricks to pick from, and to get excellent at your art form rather than just good

>when is it important for a writer to know they type of each word in a sentence or similar? the simple answer is: when you want to make sure you're writing correctly structured phrases

intuition/by feel will eventually fail you

and if being correct is necessary and not just something that would be nice to have (imagine writing formal documents), then knowing the theory is paramount

this is all setup for the hard sell of an app that will formally verify your sentences for you

you know me too well

if your sentence type checks, it must be correct!

what's that thing they say about haskell

something like that

my theory is that if something doesn't compile for long enough it forces you to look at it for hours and hours and you end up spotting loads of bugs you missed before

this is why generative grammars failed as an irl linguistic approach though

what is a generative grammar

it's also an open problem whether or not natural languages can be formalised

@danieleneal in short, this kind of stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backus%E2%80%93Naur_form

Also if you heard of Noam Chomsky, that’s where the approach comes from. I was surprised to find that he’s more known in CS than linguistics 🙂

@bronsa Lojban?

that's an artificial language

not a natural one

:gnome:

yeah chomsky's work was fundamental for parsing theory

Esperanto is an interesting intersection: it’s a constructed language, but has native speakers and it has evolved

TIL esperanto is actually used

Sure. AFAICT it’s got a subculture that looks a bit like couch surfing, and the native speakers are bilingual, raised by parents who are Esperantists. (Although it has the same problem every bi- (or multi-) lingual kid encounters, in that if the language isn’t spoken by the rest of the kid’s environment like school, the kid forgets the language or refuses to use it)

also found it surprising that it’s relatively popular in the far east despite its eurocentric vocabulary and grammar

“world peace” turns out to be a dominant meme over “let’s think logically”

(or “let’s think emotionally”; see Láadan)

although maybe it’s just about language age? ¯\(ツ)/¯

I've been a paid writer for nearly a decade and I don't know shit about tenses

pure intuition babyyyy

that said, bc of learning french I know most of them in french, I just don't have to hand the english equivalents... because I'm, dumb, I guess?

gosh that last sentence was like the somme in its punctuation usage

a quagmire

come to think of it, one other major reason for knowing grammar is better reading comprehension skills

I like grammar because it creates slots in my brain that then everything falls into. A classification system.

I can then read a sentence and the parts instantly becomes discernible even if I don’t know the vocabulary.

Granted, this (1) applies only when learning a foreign language and (2) apparently most people don’t learn language like that and find it strange 😄

But with any other concept, learning the pattern / regularity allows you to make sense of noise, and things that relate to what you already have in your head tend to be easier to understand and easier to remember.

Itching to do some more clojure

i've got so much of it i've forgotten i even wrote lots of it @yogidevbear - i keep coming across code and git-blame points the finger at me but i have no recollection

is there a nice way to convert a keyword (maybe with a namespace) to a string such that it can be easily converted back to a keyword again ?

=> ((keyword (subs (str :foo/bar) 1)) {:foo/bar 2})
2

yeah, subs seems nicer than str/join

it does seem a bit odd that (keyword "foo/bar") generates a keyword with namespace and name, rather than just name

the docstring doesn't mention it

i'm liking that bit atm - i'm coercing btw json objects and clojure maps and i want the namespaced keywords to survive the journey to and fro

i think i've repeatedly forgotten about subs because it's not in clojure.string

haha, right

ah, keyword delegates to Symbol.intern in the java, which does an explicit check for /, so it is intentional: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Symbol.java#L58-L64

So… the subs call is making me think (rest ":keyword") which I’m sure is going to be painfully inefficient… What’s the purpose of treating strings like sequences of characters, and have you ever made use of it?

I don’t think I’ve ever made use of it - it might be good in interviews if someone asked you to code up a palindrome detector or something. I feel like it was almost just showing off - “Look at all the things that can be united with the sequence abstraction!”

@lady3janepl clojure isn't treating strings like sequences

rest operates on seqables

clojure is automatically converting the string to a seq and then returning the rest of that seq

it seems like a trivial difference but it's quite fundamental

I think you'd agree that making a string a seqable makes sense, and that being able to take the rest of a sequable also makes sense

from that it follows that rest "working" on strings also makes sense

I think it's not controversial that if you can operate on strings directly rather than on sequences of chars, that's better

but that's the rationale

I’m not questioning that making a string a seqable makes sense, because it is a sequence of characters by definition; rather I thought there was a low-level usecase somewhere that I wasn’t aware of

@peterwestmacott yes, I’ve only used it in 4clojure before but it was definitely useful there 😄

also I’m stealing your tagline XD

if I can steal your carrot cake recipe

sec

(-> recipe (translate :sv :pl) (translate :pl :en))