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#clojure-uk
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2017-05-18
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malcolmsparks06:05:33

IPv6 addresses are valid too. Perhaps you should be specific. troll

malcolmsparks06:05:37

My (high recommended) ISP supported IPv6 over a decade ago.

thomas07:05:08

morning 😼 mogge

thomas07:05:04

@malcolmsparks yes, we support IP6 as well. To us it is just data and Postgres has a type for inet addresses and those are both ip4 and ip6.

agile_geek07:05:38

@mccraigmccraig you shouldn't be ashamed of doing TDD. It's a tool not a religion, use it when it works for you. It's just that for me that's almost all the time!

thomas07:05:13

when I try to do TDD I tend to write both the test and code at the same time... because when I start most of the time I am not even sure what the end result should be. hence writing the test first is quite difficult.

malcolmsparks07:05:21

I tend to write tests after writing the code. I find less value in the 'write a failing test' approach when you have a REPL.

malcolmsparks07:05:33

Plus, the continual switching of focus between writing good code and writing good tests is hard for me.

malcolmsparks07:05:26

Also, I find I have to write better code first time with Clojure because it is harder to refactor.

malcolmsparks07:05:45

That's not necessarily a bad thing though.

agile_geek07:05:24

I use the REPL to help examine data, then write the tests making assumptions about the API from the client's perspective, then implement, then I usually find my assumptions are not quite right so I refactor test and so on. I think it's whatever works for you but I've caught so many mistakes by having tests first that I'm convinced it works for me.

agile_geek07:05:05

I find the continually switching from test to implementation is the thing that helps me not make mistakes as I don't just focus on the details of the implementation but keep switching back to what the client of the fn/API wants.

yogidevbear07:05:41

Re: writing failing tests first... my understanding is that it should provide better code coverage than writing the tests retrospectively, but like Chris says, it's just "a tool not a religion"

agile_geek07:05:37

@yogidevbear it's not just about code coverage per se. I've practised TDD since 2004 and I just work much better with it than without. Doesn't mean I don't use the REPL a lot as well. My views on TDD are well documented - http://devcycle.co.uk/TDD-Thats-Design-Done/ http://devcycle.co.uk/To-Do-Damage/

yogidevbear07:05:53

Thanks for the links. I'll make a note to read through them a little later 👍

benedek08:05:53

@malcolmsparks could not agree more on the REPL driven dev vs test first point. but why is it harder to refactor?

glenjamin08:05:16

REPLs are great for exploration, I find TDD is great for stating my problem

dotemacs09:05:12

Steve Yegge’s reasoning on why Kotlin: I'm too blue-collar to use Clojure http://steve-yegge.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/why-kotlin-is-better-than-whatever-dumb.html

thomas09:05:08

in the past he used to like Clojure....

thomas09:05:44

didn't he write the foreword to joy of Clojure?

glenjamin10:05:46

Kotlin appears (to me) to be the best “better java”

thomas10:05:44

To paraphrase Linus T. Java can't be done right...

dominicm10:05:51

I thought Steve Yegge decided Clojure was poisonous.

thomas10:05:15

he might have... but that is not what he wrote at first.

thomas10:05:28

it is ok to change your mind of course.

thomas10:05:34

and maybe it is just me... but sometimes that devalues the next time that person is being an advocate.

agile_geek10:05:14

I don't think admitting you've changed your opinion devalues the original opinion. I held loads of technical opinions 20 years ago that I've moved from through experience.

agile_geek10:05:26

I think you just need to justify why.

glenjamin10:05:11

“Chris in programming language flip-flop shocker”

thomas10:05:37

I think you have said it way better then I ever could @agile_geek 🙂

thomas10:05:13

saying you are too blue-collar to use Clojure doesn't tell me anything about Clojure

agile_geek10:05:28

@glenjamin what are you talking about...I still love COBOL!

thomas11:05:00

I still like CMVC!!!!

thomas11:05:22

I can do things with it I can't (easily) do with Jira and/or git.

thomas11:05:45

(just the fact that I need two different things to do some of that really annoys me)

thomas11:05:09

and mind you... most people who have worked with CMVC hate it big time!

maleghast13:05:33

I feel as though I am missing something... The only opinion I've felt the need to modify is how much I like PHP... All the other languages I can program in and have done "for money" are pretty much equal in my affections... I mean I tend__ to enjoy Clojure more, but I still get a huge kick out of writing code in Python and Ruby, and even (god forbid) JavaScript... Is it not just a case of "tool for the job" and whatever makes the most commercial and technical sense, and in the end it's all an accommodation? I mean why does anyone care what Steve Yegge used to think and what he thinks now - if you like Clojure and you feel it fits your needs then surely that's all you need?

maleghast13:05:08

I mean there are hundreds, nay thousands of people out there using Scala, surely they wouldn't be if they cared about anyone's opinon?

thomas13:05:54

and yes you are correct of course... we/I shouldn't care what Steve Yegge thinks.

thomas13:05:05

upwards and onwards!!!

mccraigmccraig13:05:23

lol @ It's not "weird" like Clojure or Scala (and let's face it, they're both pretty weird.)

mccraigmccraig13:05:49

guess i like my weirdlangs

thomas13:05:40

Clojure is not weird... it is simple 😉

agile_geek13:05:52

And Scala's not weird either to be fair....but it's not simple

thomas13:05:52

APL is weird IMHO

thomas13:05:35

(~R∊R∘.×R)/R←1↓ιR

thomas13:05:16

if anyone can tell me what that does you win a price!

thomas13:05:21

(and no cheating!)

maleghast13:05:43

@thomas - I have no clue, I did not even know that there is a language called "APL", though it looks as impenetrable as Befunge...

thomas13:05:29

We were once talking about APL.... and one of the guys asked as what the "A" stood for.... 😉

thomas14:05:35

and I agree @maleghast APL is a write only language. and even that is difficult as you'll a special keyboard.

dominicm14:05:37

When I see APL I think it's a license

thomas14:05:07

Apache Public License?

thomas14:05:21

I think that does actually exists

mccraigmccraig14:05:39

surely there are some people somewhere who love APL @thomas ?

thomas14:05:57

I am sure there are @mccraigmccraig .. but I suspect people like that just like a lot of pain.

maleghast15:05:24

So I have spent my day re-working some really sketchy Clojure that was a kind of proof of concept and I am actually quite pleased with it now... Of course now I have to take what is a reasonable tool for me in CIDER and make it into an app... This is a whole 'nother level of @TODO.

maleghast15:05:15

Ever had that moment where you just can't quite summon up the motivation to get started, 'cos the task at hand looks a lot bigger, suddenly, than you thought it was going to be..?