IPv6 addresses are valid too. Perhaps you should be specific.

My (high recommended) ISP supported IPv6 over a decade ago.

😼 mogge

Aye up

@malcolmsparks yes, we support IP6 as well. To us it is just data and Postgres has a type for inet addresses and those are both ip4 and ip6.

@mccraigmccraig you shouldn't be ashamed of doing TDD. It's a tool not a religion, use it when it works for you. It's just that for me that's almost all the time!

when I try to do TDD I tend to write both the test and code at the same time... because when I start most of the time I am not even sure what the end result should be. hence writing the test first is quite difficult.

I tend to write tests after writing the code. I find less value in the 'write a failing test' approach when you have a REPL.

Plus, the continual switching of focus between writing good code and writing good tests is hard for me.

Also, I find I have to write better code first time with Clojure because it is harder to refactor.

That's not necessarily a bad thing though.

I use the REPL to help examine data, then write the tests making assumptions about the API from the client's perspective, then implement, then I usually find my assumptions are not quite right so I refactor test and so on. I think it's whatever works for you but I've caught so many mistakes by having tests first that I'm convinced it works for me.

I find the continually switching from test to implementation is the thing that helps me not make mistakes as I don't just focus on the details of the implementation but keep switching back to what the client of the fn/API wants.

Morning

Re: writing failing tests first... my understanding is that it should provide better code coverage than writing the tests retrospectively, but like Chris says, it's just "a tool not a religion"

@yogidevbear it's not just about code coverage per se. I've practised TDD since 2004 and I just work much better with it than without. Doesn't mean I don't use the REPL a lot as well. My views on TDD are well documented - http://devcycle.co.uk/TDD-Thats-Design-Done/ http://devcycle.co.uk/To-Do-Damage/

Thanks for the links. I'll make a note to read through them a little later 👍

@malcolmsparks could not agree more on the REPL driven dev vs test first point. but why is it harder to refactor?

REPLs are great for exploration, I find TDD is great for stating my problem

Steve Yegge’s reasoning on why Kotlin: I'm too blue-collar to use Clojure http://steve-yegge.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/why-kotlin-is-better-than-whatever-dumb.html

in the past he used to like Clojure....

didn't he write the foreword to joy of Clojure?

Kotlin appears (to me) to be the best “better java”

To paraphrase Linus T. Java can't be done right...

I thought Steve Yegge decided Clojure was poisonous.

he might have... but that is not what he wrote at first.

it is ok to change your mind of course.

and maybe it is just me... but sometimes that devalues the next time that person is being an advocate.

I don't think admitting you've changed your opinion devalues the original opinion. I held loads of technical opinions 20 years ago that I've moved from through experience.

I think you just need to justify why.

“Chris in programming language flip-flop shocker”

I think you have said it way better then I ever could @agile_geek 🙂

saying you are too blue-collar to use Clojure doesn't tell me anything about Clojure

@glenjamin what are you talking about...I still love COBOL!

I still like CMVC!!!!

I can do things with it I can't (easily) do with Jira and/or git.

(just the fact that I need two different things to do some of that really annoys me)

and mind you... most people who have worked with CMVC hate it big time!

I feel as though I am missing something... The only opinion I've felt the need to modify is how much I like PHP... All the other languages I can program in and have done "for money" are pretty much equal in my affections... I mean I tend__ to enjoy Clojure more, but I still get a huge kick out of writing code in Python and Ruby, and even (god forbid) JavaScript... Is it not just a case of "tool for the job" and whatever makes the most commercial and technical sense, and in the end it's all an accommodation? I mean why does anyone care what Steve Yegge used to think and what he thinks now - if you like Clojure and you feel it fits your needs then surely that's all you need?

I mean there are hundreds, nay thousands of people out there using Scala, surely they wouldn't be if they cared about anyone's opinon?

😉

😄

well spoken @maleghast

and yes you are correct of course... we/I shouldn't care what Steve Yegge thinks.

upwards and onwards!!!

lol @ It's not "weird" like Clojure or Scala (and let's face it, they're both pretty weird.)

guess i like my weirdlangs

Clojure is not weird... it is simple 😉

And Scala's not weird either to be fair....but it's not simple

APL is weird IMHO

(~R∊R∘.×R)/R←1↓ιR

if anyone can tell me what that does you win a price!

(and no cheating!)

@thomas - I have no clue, I did not even know that there is a language called "APL", though it looks as impenetrable as Befunge...

We were once talking about APL.... and one of the guys asked as what the "A" stood for.... 😉

and I agree @maleghast APL is a write only language. and even that is difficult as you'll a special keyboard.

When I see APL I think it's a license

Apache Public License?

yeah

I think that does actually exists

morning

surely there are some people somewhere who love APL @thomas ?

I am sure there are @mccraigmccraig .. but I suspect people like that just like a lot of pain.

@jonpither - Morning 🙂

So I have spent my day re-working some really sketchy Clojure that was a kind of proof of concept and I am actually quite pleased with it now... Of course now I have to take what is a reasonable tool for me in CIDER and make it into an app... This is a whole 'nother level of @TODO.

Ever had that moment where you just can't quite summon up the motivation to get started, 'cos the task at hand looks a lot bigger, suddenly, than you thought it was going to be..?