Exciting stuff @yogidevbear ! 🙂

morning.

Morning

Morning... UGT 🙂

Mogge

Good Morning!

morning!

Ay up

re the discussion of the job at the mailonline, how much do they offer?

(not that I want to sell my soul anytime soon)

morning

thomas you worked for Big Blue, surely they've already got that soul of yours. 😉

(I'm in no position to talk. When the revolution comes I'll be 1st against the wall)

good point otfrom... I have been Blue Rinsed and Blue Washed thoroughly...

@otfrom Wonga or just working with Apex in Salesforce?

@thomas I think I remember seeing them posting on functionalworks, but they don't appear to be there anymore. I think it was around 70 - 80k and upwards

A little Google-fu brings this up: http://jobs.dailymail.co.uk/job/senior-clojure-developer-956981123

@yogi your Google-fu is obviously better than mine 🙂

I see Jon Pither was involved in the original Clojure rewrite for them

but yes... that is quite well paid.

he was, there was a talk about it

Wonders if Jon still has his soul :thinking_face: (Just joking 😄)

@thomas - When I was approached, when I was at the BBC, the package was £90k / annum cash, plus performance / delivery bonus (unspecficied) + gym membership + Private Health / Dental

morning

I wanted to stay married to my wife, so I turned down even the option of meeting with them - I am not kidding, if I took a job at the Daily Mail, she would have left me.

well... she is a woman of principals, I can see why you married her

You owe her every day for saving your soul 😉

It must have been a super interesting project to work on (the rewrite I mean)

Has anyone here worked through https://github.com/magomimmo/modern-cljs/tree/master/doc/second-edition before?

I read over the first 4 or 5 tutorials last night and it looks really good

@thomas - Her principles are not the only reason, but honestly yes they were a factor 😉

seems functional works removed the add https://twitter.com/Functionalworks/status/816784336154402817

they also removed the tweet referencing the removed add

btw it was 100k if i remember right

I'm not sure of everything that went down, but that seems pretty commendable of them (functionalworks)

btw that is quite a bit a publicity for the mail. and as we know there is no such thing as bad publicity, right?!

agile_geek I think the most evil at scale I ever did was working at Deutsche Bank. 😉

I have to admit to being a bit ambivalent about this. Functional Works need to make money. I, for one, will not condemn them for doing so in a perfectly legal way. I don't even think advertising the job for the mail classes as immoral in the strict sense. However, it is extremely astute of them to realise their ability to provide a service to their other clients is predicated on maintaining close ties and goodwill in the FP community and therefore taking the action they have.

otfrom: sold my soul to the same devil then!

maybe functional works could color-code their opportunities based on evilness of the employer ?

my brother works at that same devil @agile_geek

@mccraigmccraig or mark them with black hearts? The more black hearts the more evil?

but how many dimensions of evil are there @agile_geek ? maybe they need a few different black emoji ?

http://dev.hasenj.org/post/3272592502/ibm-and-its-minions

the problem with the definition of evil...

morning

@thomas until i manage to become a vegan zero polluter i'm definitely registering on some axes of evil

@mccraigmccraig same here... Maybe just being alive is being evil?

being a vegan zero polluter is overrated

i find that hard to believe @yogidevbear, at least were i to take my opinions primarily from the daily mail

I'm veering towards deciding who to work for should be a personal choice. I think companies making a public stance on which clients they blacklist.... it's a slippery slope, and leads on from there.

It's a tricky one all round I think

in a previous existence @jonpither i was faced with deciding whether to take on a defence contractor client... in the end we took them and decided that the only clients we wouldn't take were covert surveillance clients - which did lead to us turning down work

Yes, I can choose to work / not work for company x, personally. But if people don't voice their opinions (read as peer pressure) when a company is acting in an "evil" manner, then company x will just keep doing whatever they want. Is that how it should be? (Devil's advocate here)

Not that expressing peer pressure should be directed at people simply looking for work

that's the temptation for sure. Bluntly peer pressure wouldn't work as these sorts of companies will always be able to hire. It would shame developers who have maybe just taken a job and rocked up into a certain community. Also, how far should we go (I saw a tweet saying developers for company X should be barred from conference invites).

I'm not disagreeing @yogidevbear, as I'd be lying if I said I was certain about all this

There are other ways to go to attack certain companies (see the Lego / DM example), and just attacking these companies out right on social media

Ah sorry didn't read your last line properly 🙂

Generic "you" here (and absolutely not defending the Mail). Not sure you can compare evilness on an absolute scale, there is more short term and evident action (the Mail) and subtle longer term (some banks, some big retailers and so on). There is tendency of business to exploit human weaknesses for profit and it's widespread in "developed countries". FunctionalWorks is making a sort of hypocrite decision there, following similar hypocryte opinions of professionals that would gladly work in a bank but not at the Mail. It's a personal choice: you should probably take a job at the Mail/Defense/Bank if that helps you achieving a better career.

mccraigmccraig we do a similar restriction on not doing TLA or other covert org surveillance work

which is annoying as they have lots of money

@jonpither was driving in the car so couldn't reply earlier. Yeah, I mean pressure on company x, not on the employees necessarily. And banning developers from a conf definitely seems a bit harsh 🙂

To be honest, if I could get a job at mailonline paying that kind of salary and learn a lot of Clojure on the job, I'm sure I would probably jump at an opportunity like that

I do question if & how morals play into business. Unless being directly affected, most people don't mind much what the businesses they use do. Others figure "Whether or not I buy from Primark, they'll still use sweatshops, as others will buy from them" so consumer will agree that Primark is "bad," but will continue to buy from them. Not entirely sure what my point is here… people on the whole don't care what DM is doing, I don't think. Especially not people who read the DM.

Discovered one more difference between the UK and NL. Brits will put their teabag first in... then fill up the mug/cup. Dutch people fill it up first and then put in the teabag. Weirdos (the Dutch that is)

Primark might be hard to compete against without a sweatshop (because it is about price). But what if there was a good DM competitor without the supposed "hate speech" but same views. Could that topple the DM?

@thomas I've met british people who do it for coffee the "dutch" way. Infact my parents still argue over it.

I do it the former way, how can you judge how much water to add without it in first!

@dominicm keep in mind that there is no milk involved here at all. Again that is a very British thing

I drink neither. Just used to making Dad's coffee. ¯\(ツ)/¯

@thomas the really weird ones are those that take the teabag out after a period of time. i want maximum teaness plz

Coffee I suspect has it's own special set of rules associated with it I think (I am not a coffee drinker)

people who pour the milk on the teabag before the water should be banned from something

@minimal some people are very religious about the order.... (all I am saying)

They should be. The tea will never brew properly if the milk is in first, it creates a weird grey tea. I say this as a coffee snob...

@minimal i did not know such perversion existed 😿

I didn’t either

Until I wandered into the kitchen once and there were 2 cups with teabags and a dash of milk in, kettle boiling

i believe that if i meditate upon this i will learn much about the world

at the very least it may stop you getting an aneurysm

I’m very anti DM, but agree it’s a slippery slope… Would Functional Works choose not to work for BAE, Nestle, etc…

If the answers yes, then fine… but IMHO they need to state what their principles are and what they object to… Makes the whole thing feel more like PR than ethics to me.

Are they actually stopping work with DM or just not advertising?

I think it is fair to say that there are other companies (besides DM) that have some very dodgy practices... but also governments and I suspect Functional Works pays tax in the UK and the UK government (amongst loads of others) does some pretty crappy things.

so yes... a slippery slope.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/934/688/af8.jpg

who knew, before those days, that the international anarchist revolution would start on #clojure-uk

@otfrom that meme is missing an "absolutely" just before "ethical" ... there are definitely more ethical and less ethical choices

@otfrom just to make it clear... as a Johnny Foreigner just visiting here I have nothing to do with this 😉

@minimal @mccraigmccraig milk before tea when loose leaf in a teapot otherwise, tea before milk

but you mean in the cup, well away from the tea leaves?

Which is fine

vs

@minimal brew tea in teapot, add milk (cold) to cup, pour brewed tea into cup taking care not to overfill (see instructions on teapot and loose leaf tea packet for how to brew tea in teapot)

they are the same discussion @thomas . p(milk-before-teaer | daily-mail-reader) = 1.0

thank you for enlightening me @mccraigmccraig I should have guessed my self

Yeah, @agile_geek the crime I’m talking about is brewing the tea in cold milk and hot water 😬

Thinking about it somemore, I guess personally I’m pleased they’re not supporting the DM; but I have no assurances that it’s anything to do with their own ethics… just PR/business; and I don’t have a problem with that. I do have a lesser problem with them dressing it up like it’s an ethical decision on their part though.

@rickmoynihan I think the two are intertwined (complected?) in their case. It's 'ethical' and, by virtue of their business model, good business. I don't have a problem with an ethical viewpoint being taken because of pressure on a business model. That's how 'we' can force businesses to do ethical things, by hitting their bottom line

I'm wary of encouraging virtue signalling, which is lots of people on social media making cascading signals about their own ethics but in reality doing very little. I agree with @agile_geek it's good for FunctionalWorks business model no doubt, so I'm neutral on that.

I'm definitely more about the effects than the intentions agile_geek 🙂

jonpither given the way so much signalling is going at high levels of gov't atm (here and in the US), I'm happy for people to even signal opposition

a low bar, granted

anyway, back to clojure

https://clojurians.slack.com/archives/clojure-uk/p1483563455001690

mccraigmccraig & minimal ^^

I was saying maybe urania does, but I don’t use either, only spec

I’m sure the cats macros could benefit from being specced

and i haven't played with spec

I’m sure it will be hard to get it as good as haskell tho

mccraigmccraig I think it is a trade off. 😉

from what I have seen (and I am not expert what so ever) is that spec can be quite powerful, but not a silver bullet...

there are things type system will only be able to do and there are certain things only (something like) spec can do.

just my 2cts.

@otfrom yes, if your contracted lead actor is a piggie then lipstick may be helpful, but i'm definitely gonna be spreading the casting net wider for my next film

mccraigmccraig ouch 😉

mccraigmccraig have we lost you to the allures of good static typing?

@otfrom most likely - though i've got 50kloc of clojure and a very live project atm, so i'm not going anywhere quickly, and i'm also sold on the benefits of lisps and isomorphic systems, which narrows the field somewhat

I'm not sure I could ever really get into a spaceship operator

spaceship operator ?

I'm definitely a space cadet. That's why I do lisp. I can't remember more syntax.

When ever I look at PL with syntax I am not familiar with (ie. non Clojure and non C like languages) I tend to find them very difficult... my brain can't handle them (anymore)

haskell and f# looks just weird to me.

You kinda get over it, clojure was weird at the start

there's a solid few months of getting used to a new syntax @thomas - even with light syntax like clojure the difference between special-forms, macros and fns seems weird at the beginning

true.. I guess I just haven't tried it (yet)

yeah, complaining about syntax is a bit of a joke. I do have special dispensation from some Haskellistas to keep using a dynlang like clojure though given my usual problem domain. 😉

@otfrom how very generous of them

@agile_geek: That was my initial point… I don’t mind ethical things being done for selfish business reasons alone… But as @jonpither says signalling alone isn’t enough to make a legitimate claim to being ethical; if they’d spent an extra day thinking about their ethics and what they do/don’t agree with and what might lead to them turning down business in the future then I’d say can make the claim. Maybe they have an internal policy documenting this already, in which case I don’t have a problem… but without it I have to assume ethics don’t factor into their business decisions at all.

My ethical low point was working briefly on cigarette advertising, in my first job. :-(

There are endless debates about clients to avoid at ThoughtWorks - it's almost impossible to have a clear policy, as there's such a huge grey area between the truly evil and the mostly virtuous.

@rickmoynihan I will give them the benefit of the doubt as I suspect the answer is that this is the first time they've thought about it....and it may prompt an ethics policy. Either way, I'd much rather deal with them than most other recruiters who are frequently unethical and make no bones about it.

korny: nobody said ethics was easy 🙂

agile_geek: If I’m honest I don’t think it would sway my decision making either way…

but I do think the signalling phenomenon waters down whatever real ethics is. And that can only be a bad thing.

@korny, that reminds me of my first dev job too. I was vegan at the time (don't judge ) and the company I worked for had a client with a game hunting business. They would regularly send through photos of people they had taken on game hunts with their "prizes" to put on their website. It was really heart wrenching for me at the time.

sparkling seems to have leaped back to life

If Spark Streaming is in there I’ll scream....

Flambo begat Sparkling

and there is another that is more transducery

jasonbell I think you are OK with sparkling at least

korny: you kinda made my point in another way… If you’re going to claim the moral high ground, at least take it seriously and have the conversations… I don’t think you neccessarily even need a policy… at least just state what led to the ethical action. Thoughtworks seem to be taking it seriously, good for them.

@otfrom Sparkling contributor, Onyx contributor; look what you’ve done to me..... it’ll be talks next.... oh.

I'm a bad, bad man, but we established my poor ethics earlier

🙂

the awesome power of voluntelling @jasonbell !

@mccraigmccraig not quite, Sparkling needed a function so I just put that in. Onyx twitter plugin seriously needed to be able to filter from the firehose so I did that over Christmas..... Boxing Day I think it was.

Sales is the process by which you make other people believe that your ideas are their ideas. 🙂

@otfrom as I have no ideas of my own, I suck at sales!

agile_geek I didn't sell you that one. I do love that jasonbell believes he was never voluntold

@otfrom I know...dear naive Jade.

I can hear you know @otfrom

@jasonbell well he is a bad, bad man (and about to say "Sorry" again)

I'll say, "sorry", but I'm not sure I mean it. I think I might be a bit unrepentant

@otfrom: plants seeds and that's fine, the clojure seed and then the "let's do this in onyx"

with brainwashing that good, I should do a startup 😜

Or convince people to contribute to a tech community?

I would never do that

btw, which events are you organising this year agile_geek ? 😜

Morning

🍷 ⏲️

As someone who spent a bunch of time working for a gambling company, i’ve spent a bunch of time considering ethics of various job choices

I’d also say the problem with slippery slope arguments is they imply that after making a choice you’ll continue to move the line

but there’s always a line, and i doubt for most people their line is exactly the same as the law

(or, more likely, that someone else will continue to move your line)