Morning

@otfrom not sure I'll ever be 'norming'?

I was performing. (amateur theatre last week)

morning

morning

My wife was almost performing - had some pre-contractions on Saturday, but they've stopped again. So we're back to norming

exciting @korny

best of luck when it all happens!

btw... Emacs folks. Which Emacs should I install on Mac OS X?

@korny as I'm sure she will be in that 'fed up with the whole pregnancy' phase, fingers crossed it's not too much longer.

@thomas been away from OS X for a while now but what's your choice?

all: Still looking for suggestions for 'panel/park bench' discussion at ClojureX. If I come up with some topics and post a doodle poll will you folks vote or add suggestions please?

“Has Clojure stopped being exciting?"

@glenjamin: from my subjective pov, yes

Current topic suggestions: 1. Frameworks vs Libraries? (problem with this is it preempts a talk by Luke VanderHart the next day) 2. Clojure adoption? Has it stalled? What do we do about it? Do we want to accelerate it or remain niche ('secret sauce')? @glenjamin - we can add in "Has Clojure stopped being exciting?" and if it has is that actually OK? (i.e. it's solving pragmatic problems) 3. Your favourite Clojure Libraries and why you like them?

@thomas i'm using https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport

@agile_geek re emacs. there seems to the be standard GNU Emacs and spacemacs

and the one @mccraigmccraig just posted

i changed from homebrew so that i could use https://github.com/tonsky/FiraCode without any hassle

otherwise homebrew was fine

i think it’d be a good broad discussion prompt

i don’t really seem to get excited about clojure at the moment, but i also haven’t written any for a while. I’m unsure whether the lack of excitement is good or bad

i'm writing it every day and i don't get excited about it - my excitement is reserved for things which seem to offer a 'better way' and i think clojure has delivered all the 'better way' sauce it has, or likely will have, to offer

or maybe i'm just after shiny new things 🙂

@thomas I used the std GNU Emacs (from memory) but I think at one point I had the homebrew version. No problems with either. I hear loads of good stuff about Spacemacs but it falls into two categories: 1. "I use VIM and this is an easy route into the tooling emacs provides for Clojure" 2. "Spacemacs gives me a batteries included starting point for Clojure development" The feedback from most experienced Emacs users is: I have a config I like and I'll just stick to or tweak that. True in my case but I 'borrowed' a lot of modes etc. from Spacemacs and included them in my own config.

but i don't need the language i use to be exciting - i need it to support my process and get in the way as little as possible

but excitement sells

is clojure no longer a stand-out, or are we just used to it?

@glenjamin @mccraigmccraig there is always shiny new thing syndrome. However, I think Clojure not being too exciting to those who have done it for a while is fine if it reflects 'getting sh*t done'

@glenjamin I think it's just this community is used to it

I still find Clojure exciting... but then again, I only very recently started using it proferssionally

maybe in 5 years time I'll say something very different

I actually think that Clojure getting more 'boring' and delivering pragmatic solutions may increase adoption. Java and Ruby on Rails are not seen as exciting but there are plenty of new projects written in both

If soliving hard stuff without getting in the way becomes routine, isn't that fulfilling Clojure's promise?

+1 Clojure doesn't need to be exciting

Hmm, @glenjamin just from this discussion sounds like you may have hit on a good staring point for the panel/park bench! I'll still poll it but thanks! P.S. if you're at ClojureX, consider yourself volun-told onto the panel!

I’m not sure I have much to add beyond deep-sounding open questions

I have a ticket, but not 100% sure i’m heading down yet - it overlaps with the last few days of my contract

Aww, I hope you can come. Would be nice to catch up.

Morning

I still find clojure, well, if not exciting then maybe just ‘wonderful’, when I’m forced to use anything else. (where for ‘anything’ I really mean ‘C#, Java, Ruby or Python’ - I don’t seem to get to use anything newer)

i’ve been doing a lot of “modern” javascript lately, and getting along well with it. But I wonder if I did more Clojure(script) whether I’d notice the gap is larger than I thought

yeah, I’m quite keen to do some es6 - especially as it seems people are getting good ideas from FP - persistent collections yay! But sadly it doesn’t seem to have made the jump to server-side coding, and that’s where I’m mostly stuck at the moment.

actually I’m probably going to be stuck at home for a while before I’m stuck anywhere else, when the baby comes 🙂

You can use babel on a node codebase

although there’s no persistent collections in ES6 afaik - the fairly popular approach is via immutable.js which is just a module

that’s what I was referring to - at least it’s popular!

You definitely can use es6 and the rest on the server side - it’s just corporations and server-side devs seem locked into their legacy languages

@korny I was remarkably productive with private projects after the first baby was born. Both my wife and the baby just slept most of the day. Second baby is very different. (because of the first one).

Yeah - from what I hear, there’s a lot of “it depends”. Either I have 8 weeks of relaxed chilling at home with the family, and some nice coding when everyone is asleep… or I have 8 weeks of hellish sleep-deprivation and will mainly be skilling up on poo management. Or somewhere in between 🙂

agile_geek exciting is the wrong word, but I still find clojure fun and interesting

sounds about right @korny

otfrom: I will take 'fun and interesting' over 'exciting' anytime. 'Exciting' in my world is too often a euphemism for ridiculously stressful! 😉

I find running purescript/node in prod very exciting indeed.

is that the good exciting or the bad exciting @martintrojer ?

I feel alive! 🙂

but it is behaving well.

bugs caught at compile time etc etc

yep, i'm sold on the static-checking koolaid

rock solid is the only words I can think of to describe our Elm codebase. Its so good I have very little excuse to go back to it, its weeks and weeks between sessions. The clojurescript code base is in a constant state of fire.

any time you re-write code-base you get a lot of improvement, that's so common an observation it needs its own cognitive bias: the software re-write fallacy

When in situations where I can’t use ClojureScript on the frontend, I quite like TypeScript, PureScript and Elm are also nice however TypeScript is an easier sell unfortunately

@malcolmsparks I've mentioned the same on this channel several times...nice to have a name for it tho!

@malcolmsparks offset by the second-system syndrome 🙂

not a re-write tho

¯\(ツ)/¯

just imagine how amazing it would be of you re-write it a third time... 😉