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#clojure-uk
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2016-06-27
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yogidevbear08:06:42

Morning Thomas

yogidevbear08:06:49

How was your weekend?

thomas08:06:52

@martintrojer: sorry to hear about your incident over the weekend… it hasn’t happened to me yet… but I am sure it will at some point over the next few weeks

thomas08:06:27

hi Yogi, fine… had a lovely dinner party Saturday night.

martintrojer08:06:36

@thomas the question is do we move out of the UK now or later? The smart move would be to sell the house now (and rent), there is no doubt the housing market bubble will pop.

thomas08:06:08

@martintrojer: we have been asking ourselves the same question… sad isn’t it?

yogidevbear08:06:24

tldr; Essentially the EU referendum is advisory, not compulsory

yogidevbear08:06:12

And the referendum is not distinctly related to Article 50 (which is the legal matter of a member state deciding to leave the EU)

martintrojer09:06:50

I have no idea how they can spin 'not technically leaving the EU' to the people who voted Leave. Sounds like a constitutional crisis to me.

yogidevbear09:06:09

I agree, there will be lots of outcry from the people that voted leave (similar to the current outcry from the remain camp)

yogidevbear09:06:38

That said, it is at parliament's discression

martintrojer09:06:05

this assuming that the next PM will interpret the referendum result as a people agreeing to stayin in the EU but re-negotiate the terms.

yogidevbear09:06:10

I'm no expert, nor would I want to be in this particular instance, but the article is very interesting

yogidevbear09:06:28

Especially the parts where he discusses points 1 and 2 of article 50 in greater detail

martintrojer09:06:10

I agree the details are interesting, but on a higher level, I have a very negative outlook for where the UK (well, Kingdom of England) is headed.

martintrojer09:06:17

I can't see any upsides anywhere

yogidevbear09:06:10

I hear Scotland love immigrants 🙂 Maybe I should think of relocating too

yogidevbear09:06:40

Edinburgh seems lovely

agile_geek09:06:14

@martintrojer: not just the Kingdom of England, the Principality of Wales too.

thomas09:06:02

and isn’t that even a bigger problem. disenfranchising the people who have it difficult already even more? The people voted and the Etonian Pig …….. ignore them… again and again and again.

otfrom10:06:18

I'm actually getting more bothered now by the anti-migrant attitudes of major English politicians (pretty much everyone except Sadiq Khan, Jeremy Corbyn and Caroline Lucas). They are giving a lot of validity to some ugly feelings

rohit10:06:28

@otfrom: Anna Soubry last night on question time is the only tory I've heard who wasn't apologetic or passive aggressive about migrants. rest of the govt, well thats another story.

martintrojer10:06:39

the pound, oh dear.

otfrom10:06:57

yeah, not good. Had some fun paying some US bills on Friday too. ffs

thomas10:06:41

I don’t even wanna watch the video…

thomas10:06:51

just the headline makes me feel sick

martintrojer10:06:20

^^^ "People's pensions are safe, the pound is stable"

thomas10:06:30

yeah what ever

martintrojer10:06:35

What in the holiest of F**KS is this idoit talking about?

thomas10:06:05

Run @martintrojer while you/we can

martintrojer10:06:03

If this is the next PM then god help us all, he is clearly unqualified and totally clueless

martintrojer10:06:38

Having read his column, I mean, UK can leave the EU and keep all the free market/movement benefits?

martintrojer11:06:39

he lives in coco land

thomas11:06:01

yes… not a happy thought.

dominicm11:06:45

@martintrojer: I thought we could do a Norway and follow all the rules? We'll probably be hit with additional penalties though I guess.

dominicm11:06:10

We can't do "just" benefits though

martintrojer11:06:41

a few Malcom Tucker quotes comes to mind thinking about boris;

martintrojer11:06:56

> He’s so dense that light bends around him.

martintrojer11:06:05

> He's as useless as a marzipan dildo.

martintrojer11:06:39

@dominicm: I think its politically impossible for UK to agree to Norwegian terms

martintrojer11:06:14

Many reasons; It would mean free movement of EU citizens 'uncontrolled immigration' and much control still being in Brussels (UK have to abide to all rules set out to participate in the common market), only now UK has lost it's say in any of these rules.

martintrojer11:06:52

... to name a few

dominicm11:06:45

@martintrojer: Ah, political career suicide for someone like Boris. I understand now.

otfrom12:06:40

martintrojer: at least marzipan is delicious

minimal12:06:57

but the good marzipan comes from germany

thomas12:06:58

the current situation is a loose-loose-loose for almost everyone (except currency traders)

minimal12:06:02

farage gets paid in euros so he is winning

otfrom12:06:37

I think EU will force article 50 by making it really shitty for UK to stay in EU

martintrojer12:06:38

and the deal offered by the EU will be pretty bad

otfrom13:06:27

I think the deal will be worse than whatever is currently in force or in train while UK is still part of the EU and I think more and more rules that the UK won't like will be coming in while they delay on article 50

otfrom13:06:57

basically the shitty version of an exploding offer

martintrojer13:06:07

the deal remaining in the single market will be so bad that UK can't accept

martintrojer13:06:23

I think UK will be forced to leave that too

martintrojer13:06:11

Speaking for myself, I will not stay in the UK under some kind of work-permit / point system.

otfrom13:06:16

well, not forced (as in the EU will start article 50) but it will be so horrible they won't have a choice by to trigger article 50

otfrom13:06:50

martintrojer: I've heard "talented" migrants will always be welcome in the UK. I'm going to learn to juggle or ride the unicycle.

martintrojer13:06:17

talented migrant my foot, I still need to prove my worth every year on my tax return

otfrom13:06:01

yeah, but no juggling, no points for you

otfrom13:06:08

taxes have clearly never been enough

martintrojer13:06:36

if I get ill / want to take a year off. The police will knock on the door and deport my family (and take my children out of school)

otfrom13:06:43

(obviously I find the whole situation horrifying and am a big believer in the free movement of people)

otfrom13:06:02

martintrojer: yeah, it is not a good system

otfrom13:06:11

same problem with free movement of labour

otfrom13:06:40

"pls come here so we can use you for some years and then tell you to fuck off to where you came from away from your friends when you are no longer of use"

otfrom13:06:01

free movement of labour vs free movement of people that is

martintrojer13:06:06

British citizenship for me and my family is totally off the table btw, never in a million years ever. A matter of principle.

otfrom13:06:28

martintrojer: really? What particular reason (I can't say as I blame you)

martintrojer13:06:49

I see myself as a EU citizen much more than a British citizen.

glenjamin13:06:57

because 17.4 million citizens just voted a middle finger to europe?

martintrojer13:06:58

I hate where this country is headed

otfrom13:06:24

those would be all the reasons why despite having UK citizenship I'm not feeling keen to stay

martintrojer13:06:29

I value the benefits / freedoms my EU citizenship gives far more than what a British would

otfrom13:06:44

+1 to that

glenjamin13:06:01

I’d never really thought seriously about moving away, until Friday

otfrom13:06:38

me neither

otfrom13:06:56

I've been waking up every morning thinking that something is deeply unreal or that I'm still having a bad dream

glenjamin13:06:14

and its unlikely to feel any different for months

glenjamin13:06:33

even if somehow the actual brexit never happens, all those votes did

glenjamin13:06:49

even if it had been 48/52 the other way

martintrojer13:06:55

Another aspect totally missing from the Breixt campaign was solidarity and help people in need. Britain seems to be stuck in a 'look out for no 1." right now and totally obsessed on itself. Coming from Sweden, a social democratic society where sharing our wealth and good fortune is highly valued, I just don't feel at home with the mood here. The EU project, where it came from and what is trying to acheive is much closer to my core believes.

otfrom13:06:31

yeah, the EU could be a bit less neoliberal, but I feel the same way about the lack of social democratic feeling here

martintrojer13:06:33

I just cannot subscribe to these inward looking egotistic tendencies.

martintrojer13:06:48

Being the 5/6 biggest economy in the world, how come little tiny Sweden does much more with the current Syrian refugee crisis?

martintrojer13:06:54

Something is totally rotten here.

martintrojer13:06:23

People care more getting the latest iPhone than feeding starving kids.

martintrojer13:06:48

And Brexit/Leave took us another giant leap in the wrong direction.

martintrojer13:06:40

Btw, Farage used Swedens generous refugee policies as an argument for UK to leave (since some of these people will become Swedes eventually and thus insta-move to the UK and destroy the NHS)

glenjamin13:06:59

The same iPhone argument was pointed at refugees

glenjamin13:06:35

I agree with your conclusions, but the inward looking stuff I think is more a symptom than a cause

quentin13:06:40

the austerity policies push people into this mindset (not the only cause though)

martintrojer13:06:45

in summary, if UK replaces the single market / free movement with a point system, I am definitely uprooting my family. If we stay in that, and there are still cool jobs in London (for me and my wife) we'll probably stay.

otfrom13:06:39

quentin & glenjamin austerity policies mean that people look to experts and representatives to figure out what is wrong. When those experts and reps say the problem is migrants rather than gov't policy then the problem is w/the gov't and the experts

otfrom13:06:57

so the austerity causes the pain, but doesn't direct it without a little bit of help

quentin13:06:53

@martintrojer: if it gets like that I don’t see myself staying here

martintrojer13:06:42

and speaking to a handful of my Swedish friends, I'd say 8/10 atleast (out of ~100k) would bounce

quentin13:06:47

@otfrom: but people are “tired of experts” now, what they are looking is easy to understand solutions, even at the cost of accuracy (and hate )

otfrom13:06:19

well, tired of some experts. Perfectly happy to go to "experts" like Gove/Farage/etc

otfrom13:06:14

but this kind of hate needs a fair bit of support system to keep it going, and that is what is really bothering me (and why I keep tweeting at various people asking for politicians to come out as against anti-migrant xenophobia)

martintrojer13:06:35

we should forget any notion of a second referendum or no-trigger a50 tho. BoJo will push that button later this year

otfrom13:06:46

atm, I seem to be the "right kind of migrant". I find that, obviously, very comforting.

otfrom13:06:12

yeah, I think BoJo will do it. He'll think it is the Churchillian thing to do.

otfrom13:06:37

"we shall negotiate with them on the beaches. we shall negotiate with them in the fields"

martintrojer13:06:39

they should also stop pretending that BoJo won't be the next PM, its decided.

martintrojer13:06:44

he should move in tmo

otfrom13:06:09

dunno, May might pull something off. I wouldn't guarantee we are done w/weirdness yet.

martintrojer13:06:44

Sturgeon should be the next PM tbh

otfrom13:06:29

only b/c she is the only grown up in politics atm

otfrom13:06:48

I did like the suggestion that Scotland should think bigger than independence and consider conquest

otfrom13:06:46

lol, May is the "compromise candidate" as she just wants to scrap the ECHR http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/27/theresa-may-tories-general-election-stop-boris

otfrom13:06:23

I'm sure someone will really enjoy renegotiating the Good Friday agreements. It was pretty easy last time. I think they can still find Mo Mowlam's wig

thomas13:06:10

I am not sure BoJo will press the button….

thomas13:06:24

and if there is a points system coming I am out of here...

thomas13:06:47

pressing the button is suicide….. but then again not presssing it is

thomas13:06:57

as I said loose-loose-loose

otfrom13:06:21

thomas: normally I wouldn't do this, but you are saying "loose" - release an arrow, or make something slacker rather than "lose" - not to win

otfrom13:06:43

I think you should keep it though as it feels a bit like an attack, even if it doesn't fit with your earlier statements

thomas13:06:28

@otfrom thank you for the clarification….

thomas13:06:40

English can be such a confusing language

thomas13:06:19

has some wonderful examples of how convoluted English can be.

thomas13:06:51

@bigkahuna: that is why I think he might not press the button… no win

martintrojer13:06:38

I agree with @otfrom -- BoJo will feel that it his Churchillian duty

martintrojer13:06:19

its gonna happen

thomas13:06:55

and cause 2 years of uncertainty?

thomas13:06:18

ok, at least 2 years 😉

martintrojer13:06:27

> "we shall negotiate with them on the beaches. we shall negotiate with them in the fields, we shall never surrender"

quentin13:06:39

because even after negociating new agreements, a lot of work will still need to be done

martintrojer13:06:48

I'd say 10 years

quentin13:06:05

which also mean delaying the work on real current problems by the same amount

martintrojer13:06:10

with atleast 2 general elections with course changes

thomas13:06:03

it is true… and remember, the UK has very few trade negotiators… they might have to get few Poles to come and help them out 😁

otfrom13:06:00

thomas: when I studied English Lit at U of York, England I got a lot of "Oh. I didn't know they let you take that as a foreign language."

otfrom13:06:10

this was funny back in '97

otfrom13:06:22

(for those who don't know, I grew up in America)

thomas13:06:31

in that case BoJo has to make it clear very soon that he will press the button if he becomes PM. (or anyone else for that matter who wants the job for that matter)

thomas15:06:24

and now they are talking of a jexit…. getting rid of jeremy corbyn...

glenjamin15:06:36

yeah, some great big picture thinking from the Shadow Cabinet there

martintrojer17:06:46

just watched my first house of commons session

martintrojer17:06:18

it was semi-helpful, helped me move on to the next stage of grief, heading into the depression phase.