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#clojure-nl
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2019-10-16
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thomas07:10:39

I just saw that there is a Clojure for Java programmers meet up in Utrecht. Our own @mitchelkuijpers is giving it! Bravo.

mitchelkuijpers07:10:02

If anyone has tips on how to convince java programmers I am all ears

gklijs08:10:57

I know one guy that's going there. He worked with a team that was into hacking on production and didn't like that part. So to convince him you probaly need some solid story on how to find and fix bugs in a more controlled way.

gklijs08:10:43

And maybe in general don't focus to much on the syntax of the language.

erwinrooijakkers14:10:51

@mitchelkuijpers I can recommend watching the Clojure, Made Simple by Rich Hickey Especially starting from the “ranty part of the talk”: https://youtu.be/VSdnJDO-xdg?t=1953, but the first part gives a great intro as well Great arguments for Clojure and against Java: - Keep data data (no value objects). No HttpServletRequest when something comes over wire as text in a map form, “How did we turn it into this?” - Immutable data leads to no multiple masterminders on one object (multiple references) - Fewer code that is easy to reason about (because immutability, simple and not complected) leads to fewer bugs

mitchelkuijpers14:10:28

@U2PGHFU5U Thank you, I did the presentation yesterday 😉

😄 8
erwinrooijakkers14:10:41

Haha ok hope it went well

mitchelkuijpers14:10:44

It was fun, I also showed some live coding with really trivial code examples

mitchelkuijpers14:10:09

It went great, but some java developers are just scared by the syntax...

mitchelkuijpers14:10:35

I also said the it's better to have 100 functions on one datamodel then 100 datamodels with specific functions

mitchelkuijpers14:10:53

I hope they got the point, but it is hard some are really stuck in their ways

erwinrooijakkers14:10:14

that quote on the 100 functions I heard Rich Hickey improve it

erwinrooijakkers14:10:25

In Clojure for Lisp programmers when he explains the seq abstraction somewhere

erwinrooijakkers14:10:05

He states something like: “It is better to have 100 functions on one data abstraction, than 10 objects with 10 functions each”

mitchelkuijpers14:10:32

Yeah that is the one

erwinrooijakkers14:10:01

Benefits of Abstraction • "It is better to have 100 functions operate on one data structure than to have 10 functions operate on 10 data structures." - Alan J. Perlis • Better still -100 functions per abstraction • seq implemented for all Clojure collections, all Java collections, Strings, regex matches, files etc. • first/rest can be lazily computed 22 

erwinrooijakkers14:10:53

How many people were there?

mitchelkuijpers14:10:13

There was one question that really annoyed me, someone wanted to know how many of the vm's around the world run Clojure.. He forced me to make a educated guess..

erwinrooijakkers14:10:45

Difficult to say right

erwinrooijakkers15:10:04

Why did it annoy you?

mitchelkuijpers15:10:06

Yeah and it doesn't matter

mitchelkuijpers15:10:15

He asked it in a way like it matters

erwinrooijakkers15:10:24

Like popularity matters

erwinrooijakkers15:10:26

And it does in a way

erwinrooijakkers15:10:47

But Clojure runs on the JVM so it is using a popular platform with loads of the benefits because of that

mitchelkuijpers15:10:52

Sort of.. but you can never be ahead of the grain if you only use populair stuff

mitchelkuijpers15:10:13

But not sure why it annoyed me so much

erwinrooijakkers15:10:27

I heard Simon Peyton Kones of haskell say in a talk that he was happy that it did not become so popular (at first) so tehy did not have to be backward compatible

mitchelkuijpers15:10:59

Anyhow thank you for listening, it still amazes me how much LISP syntax scares java developers

gklijs15:10:21

Not being backwards compatible when in the 'design' phase of the language is pretty normal. Rust seemed to be pretty bad before 1.0, and Elm is also still breaking stuff each release.

borkdude07:10:02

good morning

dmarjenburgh07:10:13

Hey all, just inquiring. Are there any experienced Clojure devs willing to work on a newly setup project in AWS including Clojure and Datomic at NNIP? 😉

dmarjenburgh07:10:26

Last quarter we setup the infrastructure and Clojure and Datomic Cloud are up and running. But I’ll most likely not be able to stay there after end of the year and there just isn’t enough competence knowledge there for people to continue working on it.

dmarjenburgh07:10:34

NN Investment Partners

thomas07:10:16

aah ok. So is this a job opening?

thomas07:10:44

(not that I am interested, as I am about to start a Clojure job in 3 weeks time)

dmarjenburgh07:10:04

Nothing official. I’m just looking to see if there is interest. I’m working there externally, so I can’t give any job offering. But we might arrange that I hire you in my place or some construct. This needs to be worked out

gklijs07:10:55

I'm most likely available, as a contractor, from January. Their office seems to be in The Hague, which would be close enough.

dmarjenburgh08:10:26

@gklijs Shall I send out an invite to drop by? I can show you around so you can get an idea.

dmarjenburgh08:10:57

It would be from January, so no rush

Mno08:10:12

Sounds nice, probably really cool, don't have the experience for it though probably.

dmarjenburgh08:10:11

@hobosarefriends How long have you been programming? simple_smile (Being dev lead/managing expectation is more important than the technical-fu…)

Mno08:10:41

3 years or so.

mitchelkuijpers15:10:59

Anyhow thank you for listening, it still amazes me how much LISP syntax scares java developers