Clojurians Log v2

We have taken the discussion about sponsorship with @asier.galdos to DMs.

What do the big companies critique about Clojure, what makes them uneasy?

Why do you ask, and why do you ask in this thread specifically?

is that where you are based? I'd be happy to consult and possibly help out a local organiser. I think it would be great to have an event in Spain/Portugal, I think there's interesting stuff happening there but that folks aren't that plugged in to the community (e.g. Penpot)

Yes, we are based in San Sebastian (remote first, but offices in Oñati and San Sebastian). San Sebastian is a lovely city and September could be a good month for an event, There are only a few companies doing Clojure in Spain, Penpot is located in Madrid and GreenPowerMonitor (Barcelona) got rid of CLJS a few years ago.

Well, thanks to us, many companies run Clojure based products in Spain.

Orkli, Michelin (Vitoria), Eurofragance, Goizper Group, IFAM, Pamesa, Intress,...

@asier.galdos are you affiliated with Health Samurai? Their CTO is in Portugal and also wanted to organize something. Btw speaking of winter, doing this in Spain/Portugal would actually be nice in that season

keep in mind that San Sebastian is in the north, not in Andalusia 🙂 can still be nice, but don't expect t-shirt weather

Never heard of it. Well, the north of Spain (Basque Country) is different. It rains a lot.

Personally I avoid South of Europe around the summer time, way too hot for me

Pinging @nicola

ohh you're the head of Biotz, hi! I didn't connect the dots. We just did a gig for you 🙂 (well, Mitesh did)

Yes, Mitesh is impressive. Very good.

he really is, I'm very grateful to work with him... coming up to 7 years soon I think

btw this was the post from Health Samurai / @nicola https://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/1r94jmz/whos_up_for_another_clojure_conference_in_europe/

I’m on record saying this, but I would really like to the see former organizers of the various European Clojure conferences work together on a big EuroClojure event rather than seeing five small, fragmented ones. There's a lot of expertise built up among @mjheikkila and others, and it would be great if the financial risk were more distributed, &c, &c.

@plexus I've been talking with the Causal Islands organizers about putting together a new European conference that mixes the vibes of StrangeLoop and Resonate. Would you be interested in getting involved with that effort for next year?

Possibly! happy to chat

I also prefer a big EuroClojure event.

I think there's room for big events and regional events. I do agree more collaboration would be helpful. I'm going to start having more conversations with people to better understand where everyone's mind is. Conference organising is hard work, it can be very rewarding, but it is also brutally exhausting. People do it anyway for a variety of reasons. Usually there are one or two people who take the lead year-on-year, and when they get too tired of it, or get other life priorities, or leave the company, then there's no continuation. Hence ClojureD, ClojuTRE, etc... Something I've been thinking/dreaming of for years is to get a collective effort going of people who are interesting in being involved with european community event organising, and to gradually build up organisational expertise, starting with smaller events, so that there's a process, things get easier over time, and there's continuity as people come and go. That's also why I did that write-up about HoC tooling. There's a lot there to build on, but there's a parallel process of institution building that hasn't even started yet. There's also a tension that I've always felt acutely with HoC, since this is a community event in the sense that we try to keep it affordable, and it's only possible with the help of volunteers, but it's still organised by a commercial entity. Some people get that, we'd have to charge twice as much (at least) if we didn't have those volunteers, but it can be awkward. Especially because we do want to make money off of it! It's not going to make us rich, but we do want to be compensated for the many days and nights we invest it in. Fair enough, but how do you make it worthwhile for other people involved in organising and running the thing? Do they just want to be involved and get their ticket and hotel paid for, or is there something else that motivates them? I think it'd be good to have some really open brainstorming and discussion around this, to make sure expectations are aligned.

My two cents: • In order to sponsor this type of event, size and variety of people matter. Otherwise it’s burning money. Companies need visibility, brand awareness, etc. and small events cannot offer that. • I was at Bratislava in Euroclojure and afterwards, in the same venue, the React conference. The React conference was much more fun. We need both, great talks and fun. I’ve been told that Heart of Clojure achieved this goal. • Location, location, location. People love to mix personal and professional interests. Berlin (ClojureD) was great, Amsterdam (ClojureDays),...

So ideally, a big event with many sponsors in a cool location, with music, good spirits, and different people coming from many places.

I do like confs in nice cities obviously but bigger is not always better to me. A 100 person conf is big enough to get it going with sponsors (I just organized one co-located with DCD), reClojure is another recent example. But since Clojure confs generally don’t get bigger than 400 (conj was 250 last year) I don’t think I have to worry about a conf being too massive to still be enjoyable

I agree, I like cozy and brainy events too, but with my business hat I would like a big Clojure event that attracts all sorts of people.

I was in Bratislava and enjoyed the crowd. I bet React conf was nice but A main reason for me to come to Clojure confs is to enjoy hallway tracks with community members as well.

Ofc. React was pure entertainment, with younger people too and music, etc.

Organizing a conf organized with a business hat on sounds like it’s about revenue. Of course it has to be sustainable but revenue at the heart sounds like a conf for people with suits

I mean sponsor hat.

I guess it depends what attracts you. Bozhjdar mentioned that Ruby confs are also more about partying than the content.

You probably "sell" to peers, but the rest of us sell to clients that are not too technical. I see an opportunity to mix both,

We sponsored several Clojure events, and it was burning money.

Btw bigger confs are also more costly to cover with sponsors. I organized one for a few k. 90 people. DCD is 130, they probably have double or triple the costs because of the bigger room. The costs rise more than linear once you get bigger.

A 100 person event is an order of magnitude easier to run than a 300 person event. You have more options for venues, it's easier to organise lunch, etc. One person can do it and still hold a day job. As it gets bigger you get into qualitative differences that make it much more work, and much more expensive. So yes it's maybe less interesting to sponsors, but you also can charge your sponsors less. I reckon it's easier to find sponsors at ~€200/each for a small event, than at €1500 for a big event.

What do you mean burning money, that you did not get the investment back?

aha, I see.

@borkdude, yes, I have a budget for marketing and need to decide where to spend it.

How do you measure if you got the investment back?

it's also hard to go big and still have the vibes. Heart of Clojure is all about vibes and creating connection, we can do that at a level that a conj can't because we choose a venue and formula that's optimised for that. At bigger scale your only option are dedicated congress/conference centers or hotels, very different vibes.

Good question. I only know that nobody contacted us after conferences, but you are right, I cannot measure it.

I think companies should not expect to see a direct return in their sponsorship. It’s an investment in the social cohesion of the community. Indirectly you may see a return, if someone became convinced to work for you by thinking it’s great that a company thinks long term instead of in short gains

Conferences give people new inspiration and collaboration, without them Clojure would probably be way less popular

I know, that's why we don't sponsor events now. We spend it going to fairs, joining clusters, etc.

Clojure being popular is no longer important for us, it's a lost battle. We don't mention it now.

We spend money contributing to the community in other ways.

Paying library authors directly, Githyb sponsor, Clojurists together, collaborating with other companies (hiring them).

With popular I actually meant surviving, continuing, etc. If this isn’t important to you, why bother organizing a Clojure conference?

Oh I see

Clojure means nothing to our clients (50M-1000M euros revenue), and when some find out, they don't like it.

Clojure is our tech base and we will always try to contribute,

In short. I prefer to increase our contribution to Clojurists Together than sponsoring an event.

Well as a Clojure OSS dev I will say that I’d always welcome your GitHub Sponsorship 😅

Last year we sponsored Metosin to improve Malli and migrate Reagent to React 19, and another library I don't remember now. Gaiwan saved our ass in March in one of our projects. We use your libs too! I'll think about it.

My main problem now it's not technology it's the f*ck&ing market.

A-effing-men

Ah I see, didn't realise this was a response to Asier

We are not a big company, but I will try to share our feelings regarding sponsoring EuroClojure.

Has EC always been kind of a "movable feast"? i.e., whichever group in Europe feels they can organize it has been the group to actually get it going? Or has it historically been the same group in the past (but clearly a different group for 2027)?

it had a single organiser way back, I don't really know who it was. Nubank bought the brand, organised it two more times if memory serves (Bratislava, Berlin), and then axed it. I knew they were open to someone else using the brand, we talked about it with a bunch of the people in Europe involved with the different conferences, but no one really took the lead.

or maybe it was still cognitect who bought it...

https://clojurians.slack.com/archives/CBJ5CGE0G/p1746008168956629?thread_ts=1746007508.435769&cid=CBJ5CGE0G huh from this thread I assumed you were part of it too

https://cognitect.com/blog/2015/3/2/euroclojure-joins-the-cognitect-family-of-events

Ah, I didn't realize Nubank Cognitect had actually bought the brand and had been running it. Interesting. I totally missed that thread earlier this year too...

yeah that's what I was referring to, there was talk amongst a bunch of folks of organising one a few years back. In 2024 with Gaiwan we were already not sure what to do but in the end chose to do HoC, with the eye of maybe turning that experience into a future EC. But this time around the Prague folks just went directly to Christoph Neumann who's now in charge of such things, I don't know if he's even aware of these earlier conversations. He did put me in touch with the current organisers, one of them will be at DCD, so I may still get involved, depending on what they have planned already and if they're interested in working together.

Good for them of course, I'm glad someone is taking the wheel. But it does put me in a difficult position. Doing a HoC next year would probably mean fewer attendees and fewer sponsors for both conferences...

I know it's not Europe but back when Clojure/West and Clojure/conj both existed, they were both well-attended with a lot of folks going to both. They were generally about 3,000 miles apart tho'...

And I get the impression, that HoC would be a very different experience to EC. (but I'm not likely to attend anything in Europe so my opinions carry very little actual weight here... LOL... I'd love to of course, especially an event like HoC)

Yeah, we always sold out so hard to say what the limits of the demand are... I'm considering multiple options as well... shifting the dates, doing a smaller theme event, doing a more general event (strangeloop-esque) with a HoC track. Toying with the idea of a smaller winter event in December. Really not sure and haven't had that much bandwidth to think about it. I'll have to talk to the Not Null folks first I think. I did come across some cool venues here in Belgium which is giving me ideas 🙂

@plexus, many times I think that fellow European Clojurians should unite and create an awesome EU Inc big company. Size matters a lot in the market.

Never been in Heart of Clojure, but my teammates always tell me it's the best conference.

Well, for now we have created a subsidiary NOT NULL Events s.r.o. in Czechia which will be the formal entity behind EuroClojure 2027 as it currently stands. I was not aware of those other conversations but the idea came together at Clojure/Conj 2025 when I heard @borkdude say the wish that EuroClojure should take place in Prague. We are in Prague, so we figured that was a clear call upon us... I do want to make absolutely clear that if somebody really wants to go and cannot for financial reasons, they should please reach out as soon as possible and let us know so we can work with the information.

What about organizing EuroClojure 2028 in Flanders with a really high HoC vibe? Gives you time to relax and gives the community continuity

And thinking further, it might be nice to cycle organizers every two years for variety of location etc

Let's first figure out next year, I have no idea yet what I'll be doing in 2028. The next 12 months will have to decide if I stay independent or if I try to find a stable corporate job. In the latter case I will not be organising events in 2028.

Makes sense

We used to have multiple clojure conferences in Europe, often in the same year. ClojuTRE, ClojureD, ClojureX, EuroClojure, DCD... wouldn't hurt to have a bit more variety again, just have to make sure we don't step on each other's toes

I wouldn’t mind another HoC this year :)

Or the next

This year is definitely too late 🙂 next year could happen. My conundrum is that I actually would have liked to shift it earlier, towards June/July, so I'm not stressing out the entire summer, but with EC in May it would make more sense to shift it towards September

It has to be summer, otherwise it's not HoC

Maybe also check with the Conj to not overlap with that too much

Maybe... for EC I think having 3~4 months in between is good, for the conj as long as it's not within a few weeks of each other I think it's fine. I want to organise for a European audience, and the conj is predominantly north americans.

The only way to stay out of EC and the conj's way is to do a winter event, and I don't have much appetite for that

Or overdo it and host it in Finland together with Metosin at -20

Or organize it really close to EC so people traveling from other continents can visit neck and neck. Just brainstorming but that’s probably not it either

ClojureD used to be in end February in Berlin which was nice in my memory. But that's close to May.

FWIW Clojure South was a month before the conj last year

If you consider different locations (San Sebastian for example) we can also help organizing for a European audience.

very brave and good for you!

No matter what happens in life, you can always come here and find people wishing you a good morning!

Ain't that the truth!

Good luck @ssjoleary746!

Your status still says developer at ocean bottle, I guess no longer the case soon enough?

And good luck too! 🙂

I think it's important for our mental health as developers to be able to quit a job that is affecting us negatively. I think that's true for every job/industry, TBH, but developers have traditionally had a lot more mobility to allow for that. Good luck!

💯

yep @dharrigan, finishing at ocean bottle at the end of June

All the best and congratulations on your impending liberation!

mine isn't quite voluntarily I have to admit. I wouldn't mind working here longer, just a different role.

Is the typing system getting in the way of you focusing on your problem?

I think it's different; if everyone stopped typing, we'd simply have less problems 😄

less systems = less problems

mo' systems mo' problems

indeed

Sounds like something Zach Oaks would say

When you don't wanna wake up

everything is fucked

Everybody types