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#clojure-europe
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2023-06-12
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Mario Trost05:06:48

Good morning!

slipset07:06:57

God morgen

dharrigan08:06:25

Good Morning!

schmalz08:06:17

Morning all.

teodorlu09:06:38

Possible entry path to Clojure, not sure if it is @mkvlr's idea or mine or somebody else's: 1. A scratch-like interface, sexps under the hood (https://scratch.mit.edu/) 2. Eject into https://www.maria.cloud/. Syntax is now explicit. More interesting things can be made. 3. Eject into "dataflow namespace as a document" (eg Clerk, Clay ,...). Files are noe explicit, you need to run your thing locally. You can add dependencies. 4. Eject into repl. There are no longer any limits to what you can make (make nice things, or make bugs) Thoughts? Would you have liked to introduce your kid to programming in that order? Or do you want infix?

lread11:06:35

Morning!

☀️ 2
slipset12:06:20

@teodorlu https://vimeo.com/100425264 talk by @thattommyhall at euroclojure 2014 was interesting, and it sortof echoes my sentiments of teaching my kids to program. Scratch is all fine and dandy, but it bottoms out. There is no where to go after that. So my kids are done with scratch, but scratch doesn’t give them a way forward into “real” programming languages. The micro:bit, which uses https://makecode.microbit.org/#editor , lets you drop down to either javascript or python, which then gives you a way to go deeper.

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borkdude12:06:47

This is exactly why kids should learn Clojure and not some dumbed-down language (even if it's a subset of Clojure that doesn't expose you to the host features too much)

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slipset12:06:11

Yah, but like the eco system round stuff like scratch and micro:bit is huge. There’s a ton of little projects that they can make and stuff. Very convenient.

borkdude12:06:42

We could make Clojure-bindings for those things perhaps. Don't know those things though

slipset12:06:53

Ah, no, stuff like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_6i1-diUY0 and it’s also incorporated into schools and stuff here in Norway

teodorlu12:06:43

Good point about micro:bit allowing the user to "drop down" / "eject into" the base language. I've used micro:bit, but I didn't think of that part, somehow.

teodorlu12:06:03

I've also been wondering - if people don't understand prefix operators, why don't we replace things that look like operators with things that look like functions? (+ 1 2 3) becomes (plus 1 2 3). If prefix / infix is an actual challenge.

slipset12:06:22

Kids don’t differentiate between operators and fns. I’d say it’s all the better for them if they’re the same.

slipset12:06:05

The problem for kids would be to make them understand why they can’t

(map and this-list-of-bools that-list-of-bools)

borkdude12:06:27

Yes, don't even tell them about infix. If they learn (+ 1 2 3) from the very beginning, there is no problem at all

slipset12:06:00

Of course with the map example, you could just act like any normal parent and say: “Because I said so!” when they ask why.

jackrusher14:06:01

Prefix/infix is not challenge to kids. It’s only a problem for people who already have programming experience.

jackrusher14:06:11

Block languages are a great introduction, and they grow more naturally into s-exp languages anyway. This is partially because the first version of what would evolve into Scratch was programmed in the mid-90s at MIT using Macintosh Common Lisp 2.0. https://www.macintoshrepository.org/54176-tiles421-lisp

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Sam Ritchie21:06:33

Haha @U04V5VAUN that’s old school! Gotta give kids the real deal

flowthing18:06:08

Good trail running evening!

❤️ 4
emilaasa19:06:43

Finland or sweden? 🙂

flowthing20:06:01

Finland. 🙂

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Sam Ritchie21:06:38

Wildflowers are out above Boulder CO!