Omg, where are you?

Sardinia, San Teodoro

True. The message was not to state problems to 100% and first then move on. It was more about the order of things, and to make sure your bring the problem statement with you all the way, at all the steps. It’s easy to lose sight of what it is you are trying to solve. In his examples the problem statement was just a short paragraph.

There is way more information in the talk

When I was at Toyota we always started our proposals with the problem statement. Then the proposal and how it would close the gaps. I’ll be interested on his take.

His take (and this take was known to me already long before this talk, e.g. see Alex's talk at ClojureTRE19 where you also were) is that you come up with multiple solutions of addressing the problem. Then you make a spreadsheet where you discuss facets of each solution and give each cell a color (red, orange, green, green being the best). If there is a mostly green column, that's likely the preferred solution, but if you have an all green column, you may be rationalizing

I think one thing preventing me to adopt this method fully is that in Github issues there is no real support for spreadsheets

and keeping a separate bookkeeping of issues/docs or checking spreadsheets into source control is a bit annoying

I guess in a company setting this works better since you have a shared system (e.g. google docs or so) for this stuff and you have a mostly closed/dedicated team to discuss this with

whereas in open source, I mostly just discuss this with whomever it may concern

This may also explain why Cognitect isn't too open in the sense of open source collaboration since it's hard to pull in outsiders into this thinking process (I'm speculating, also, I respect that)

github has support for tables with icons ... a poor man's spreadsheet but would do what you want I reckon

It doesn’t do what Hickey wants. Seems it is a very collaborative process there, with everyone editing the document at the same time.

Gotta say I truly doubt that

I might have gotten that wrong. Let’s see when it’s up on YouTube.

Even if it was spoken I still doubt that it’s a fundamental requirement. Collaboration is usually social rather than technical. But I haven’t watched the talk so I didn’t mean to doubt you :)

I’m pretty sure he didn’t mean to say that collaboration was technical. But as far as they are taking advantage of a particular feature in a technical tool, it probably can’t be replaced with a technical feature of another tool with drastically different characteristics.

@U04V15CAJ have you also considered clerk garden? 😜

"As an external contributor I want to add a cell to the spreadsheet which is rendered using clerk. Let me open up a PR to do this which then kicks off CI so we can eventually see it" Not going to work imo. You need something like Google Docs but more integrated into Github

Having to use PRs could be the problem. If you’re prepared to take input from others, why not open up permissions on the branch like you would open up permissions on a document?

They can use clerk locally, no?

I think I'd just give them access to google docs then

I've done this in the past with @UE21H2HHD

Having said all that, this is a problem that I agree needs a better solution 💡

but having to keep data outside of the github issue, that's the main thing

Yeah, when we tried it went pretty well I thought @U04V15CAJ, we worked together for a bit which was pretty powerful, but then we also comfortably each carried on solo. If I remember right, we even got some feedback from Alex on our attempt.

yes it was pretty good

@U04V5V0V4 I think you'll enjoy the talk. Basically encouraging doing sensible things that many of us don't always/naturally do.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CIgTav0kCcWz86-eg8rHtkDrErYtY78PlmN8_JmNRy8/edit?usp=sharing

This was the issue I believe: https://github.com/clj-kondo/clj-kondo/issues/1280

Memories of the spreadsheets we worked on together, scattered cells light the corners of my mind... 🎵

Yes, I think we arrived at a much better solution that I originally proposed and better thought through. So far, I've never heard anyone complain about the final solution.

Yep, it helped us to think things through for sure.

I'm happy that I can now refer someone to RH's talk and invite someone to join this process. I'll probably just open a google doc and share it with whomever wants to collaborate on that issue

like with @UE21H2HHD

Sure, I'm game for more of this approach in the future. I often list options pros/cons in my issues, but the shared spreadsheet makes it easier to collaborate and update initial thoughts.

It encourages more thoughtful review, I think. The format is not precious. And you've actually invited someone to work on the grid with you. So there should be more psychological buy-in to dig deeper.

It would be cool to have something integrated directly in GitHub. But that probably won't happen. Maybe something users could log into with their GitHub creds might mean less friction. No clue, but maybe we could set something up under https://nextcloud.com. Maybe we should create a spreadsheet to figure out how we might use collaborative spreadsheets for open-source projects.

Yes, you did. Though Alex said they would be quite speedy with making the stuff go up on Youtube. To me having a streaming ticket served as a way to communicate to my family that I would be “away on a conference” even though I was still at home. The hours were a bit funny and overlapped what’s usually family time with 100%.

@U3X7174KS If you haven't seen it yet, watch Alex's talk at ClojuTRE19 as a preparation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeZNRypKVa4 Skip the part about spec2 in the middle though ;)

I should re-watch this talk myself, it was soooo good

I actually got to watch that one live in Helsinki! But I agree, a re-watch would be appropriate!

I was there too, my only ClojuTRE so far!

I hope they make another one. And I hope they decide to do something sauna-related.

I'm not a sauna type, but I'd sure visit again

Please @U055NJ5CC please 🙂

Beautiful, where is this?

:flag-fi: , close to where I live. The depressing thing is that the government intends to build a motorway flanked by an industrial area on top of that area.

Both of those spots would disappear.

How 1950s of them

Indeed.

that's a lovely bog to run through

slash me likes bogs

I love bogs, too. My favorite thing about Finnish nature. I feel lucky to have such nice ones close by, at least for a while longer.

Good morning!

Good morning :)