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#clojure-europe
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2023-02-15
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ray07:02:45

Good morning

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javahippie08:02:06

Beautiful! How are your shots getting better and better?

ray09:02:05

Haha thanks. maybe the iPhone 14MP?

simongray08:02:18

Good morning

Fahd El Mazouni08:02:01

😈 🔥 / 😲

otfrom08:02:35

Madainn mhath

mdiin08:02:48

Morning!

pez09:02:04

Morning! I'm a bit interested in why there is not more buzz around the #C7Q9GSHFV stuff. It look so ultimately cool to me.

jasonbell09:02:17

Okay I’m late the party as usual. What’s #C7Q9GSHFV? << @pez

pez09:02:46

Have a look at this video. 10 minutes spent and you can decide about spending more or not after that 😃 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq4_W4vLA6g

jasonbell10:02:39

Definitely interesting @pez - I’m purely backend so it wouldn’t be something I’d be touching. Happy to point developers to it though.

pez10:02:20

For pure back/frontend devs, maybe the code can be factored such that backend and frontend are more separated. Making the namespaces where both live more of the glue. Idk, I think it's worth raising the discussion in #C7Q9GSHFV, because I don't think their intention is to have pure back/frontenders not touch their stuff.

pez10:02:06

I think I saw something about it being possible to use it in a more REST-ish manner...

jasonbell10:02:33

@pez Sadly I’m at the point with Synthetica that I really don’t want to go back and change anything.

pez10:02:29

Haha. What's Synthetica?

jasonbell10:02:52

Synthetic data generation, analysis and data quality tool. All web based and deploys to custom contained spaces via Kubernetes. Upload a CSV for example, will create a model from the schema and then generates an application with API endpoints or plain job to generate the balanced data sets or fixes the missing data. Generates an ML etc.

jasonbell10:02:13

Still working on it for April/May launch.

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jasonbell10:02:19

Lots of interest which is nice.

pez10:02:14

Sounds super cool!

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vijaykiran13:02:56

oooh - very nice! Any similarities with https://www.getsynth.com ?

vijaykiran13:02:38

I’m using synth in one of the projects as alternative to Faker

jasonbell10:02:53

Never heard of getsynth until you mentioned it.

jasonbell10:02:09

There’s a bit more going on in Synthetica, secure deployment namespaces, PII/HIPPA automated processing and ML model training from pure synthetic or data+synthetic sources.

schmalz10:02:05

Morning all.

simongray10:02:13

@pez It went to the HN frontpage and got like 600 Github stars in 24 hours. Seems like buzz to me?

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pez10:02:47

Yeah, noticed the stars today as well. That's nice!

simongray10:02:30

Personally, I'm sick of writing client-server translation layers, so I've been eagerly awaiting the public release. I'm not sure it does server-side rendering (yet?) though, so I'm a bit apprehensive when it comes to using it in general for stuff on the web, as I prefer the HTML page content to load entirely without the need for JS. It's definitely very welcome for anything that needs a rich client, though.

simongray10:02:41

What I mean is, I'm not sure it can convert the (e/client ...) scopes to server scopes when creating the initial HTML page and then hydrate in a similar way to how React does it. That effectively means accepting empty or half-empty web pages on initial page load, i.e. a basic SPA.

simongray10:02:36

The holy grail would be implicit hydration. I wonder if they are working towards that.

simongray10:02:39

Like maybe (e/hydrated ...) for code that can run on both client and server depending on need.

pez10:02:46

Indeed. This is where Rum shines. It would be super if Electric could take that on as well. Maybe ask them about it?

simongray10:02:44

I just did 🙂

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pithyless11:02:09

I think the unsung hero in all this is buzz is #missionary and trying to address the semantics and syntax of asynchronicity at a language level. I’m not calling it a silver bullet, but I think it should be reviewed as prior art if you feel you are struggling with similar problems.

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javahippie11:02:59

We are in the middle of building an app with Rum on the server side and HTMX. Are there any ressources on this, SSR+Progressive Enhancement with minimal Javascript for Clojure? This is coming back for Ruby and Java (have no insights into other ecosystems), but I hardly read anybody about it in the Clojure Space

mdiin11:02:53

I’m almost sure this is not what you’re asking for, but take a look at Andy Bell’s work on CubeCSS, specifically his presentation given at a conference last year on fluid type and space: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uhIiI9Ld5M

mdiin11:02:39

What parts of progressive enhancement do you feel need a Clojure implementation?

javahippie12:02:53

Thanks for the link! I don’t think that the progressive enhancement part really needs a Clojure implementation. The idea is to have a very lightweight FE with minimal JS, and I personally don’t think that ClojureScript would add any benefit here. I was just wondering, because if you read about dynamic frontends with Clojure, it’s almost always React-Based, which has a nice programming model but comes with a cost. There were a lot of discussions about this cost in the last weeks, but I see it hardly ever discussed in the Clojure world

mdiin13:02:36

I think the fact that a framework like Biff is taking this direct approach is a step in that direction. But I agree, most of what happens in Clojure-land is centred around compiling to JS, meaning loads of JS.

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mdiin13:02:04

Something that also is rarely discussed is the fact that it is okay to start small regarding server infrastructure. You don’t have to build a micro service architecture or think about load balancing across multiple HTTP servers when you only have a small handful of customers; but somehow starting small / simple / pragmatically is often twisted to mean “not professional”.

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mdiin13:02:25

It’s good to get some more nuance in the discussion of what is professional, how to build a web based business, etc., so we don’t all just blindly follow the tech giants who have problems most of us will never have.

simongray13:02:54

Not sure what kind of resources you're looking for, but I have built an app using Rum that initially did purely server-side rendering (since its Hiccup implementation is faster than the official Hiccup library) and was later upgraded to a hydrated SPA.

simongray13:02:48

never used HTMX

javahippie14:02:07

Will read that, thanks! We use rum on the server side for the same reason that you mentioned. Hydrating is an option we’d like to have at a later point, too.

mccraigmccraig15:02:07

i've recently been working with some folks who are using elixir+phoenix-liveview ( https://fly.io/blog/how-we-got-to-liveview/ ) which has some ideas i'd not seen in clojure-land (or maybe i haven't been paying attention)... SSR, server-side efficient DOM diffing and patch generation, with diffs sent back down a websocket ... seems very cool

simongray17:02:18

What about the Ripley library?

mccraigmccraig17:02:26

ah, nice - i hadn't seen ripley