Nope, sorry, no idea about cursive. I do use https://github.com/bhauman/figwheel-main-template to generate a deps.edn project with ClojureScript and reagent. It's all I've needed so far. Haven't found the time to study the detailed shadow-cljs guide yet

Maybe better luck in #cursive

Thanks y'all

If you can help us understand what you find painful, we should be able to help you better. What is bothering you the most?

So with my go/chicken/ocaml, I have keybinds set up to very quickly get information about libraries, etc, and I've memorised the standard libraries for the two, with clojure I know F all, and am wondering if there's a better way to build programs using it instead of “writing, running the build process” without any type info, documentation, etc

Whether there's a way to quickly use the repl since I don't have that type safety the other languages afford me

What's your preferred editor for OCaml etc?

using acme for everything across the board, having code that looks for file changes and recompiles is super ez, since i'll know with the type system most of the time whether something went south, that's not including using LSP though, i haven't found the tooling mature enough to use it for anything and i cbf patching it up

Oh, the Acme editor, got it. :thumbsup:

So how do you use the REPL currently?

just starting with clojure, so currently i use lein repl

Ideally, most of us have the repl hooked up to the editor and evaluate code from within the editor without switching over to the repl

there's a program someone has written which lets you port over stdin to a repl running with lein, but i haven't found that very stable so far

for instance, i am on VSCode, and I’ll type in (+ 2 3) for instance and hit alt-enter

that will evaluate and show me the evaluated result in the editor itself

nice, would appreciate someone sharing a screencast of them doing some development in a more "interactive" environment that's not revolving around build and pray

would you recommend anything like this?

Build and pray is not what we do. If you are doing that, then clearly something is wrong

the screenshot above is from within my editor where you can see I’ve evaluated some arbitrary code

nice, trying to find a workflow that's similar, so you use vscode for each

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIoadGfm5T8

is there any way to quickly get a TLDR of something similar to this in a command line tool in simple text hooked up to a pager?

This is of course possible with Cursive

need something similar, this is triggered by command + /

you only wish to use Acme?

which uses chicken-doc

I am not sure how much Clojure support is available in Acme.

and nah open to whatever just found it a wild and whacky experience ideaj + cursive, like off the bat opening up a project doesn't create any clojure files and i can't even see how to make one

Have you used intellij before?

nope

Then, you’re probably fighting too many things

Is there any reason for the hurry? My recommendation is to slow down and take your time learning things

this isn't the first time playing around for me and this time thought it made sense to ask

Playing around is one thing

but using it in a systematic way to build is another

noone i know is using clojure so haven't had any info on how others do it

Yes, that would be useful indeed

i'm going to spend more time learning the build tooling and go from there

Do watch that video shared above

https://practical.li/

cheers

The build tooling…I am not sure that’s the place I’d begin mucking around with

There is also Eric Normand’s set of courses

i'd like to find a way to start developing it first so

https://ericnormand.me/

having something that lets me use external libraries like code to take stuff off our queue would be a good place to start for me, that way i can work on my goal

thanks, gonna play around with that

That does sound ambitious. Best of luck.

thank you for your help

@U039WAHFF4L I use Rebel Readline if I'm doing some quick experiments https://practical.li/clojure/clojure-cli/repl/ Although the vast majority is via an editor. There are many to choose from that support Clojure well https://practical.li/clojure/clojure-editors/

Here is a succinct demo by @U0ETXRFEW of “the idiomatic Clojure interactive workflow” using Visual Studio Code with Calva. Even if Visual Studio Code is not your default/preferred editor, it is arguably the quickest and easiest way to get up-and-running and familiar with Clojure. Then you can apply what you've learned in your preferred editor afterwards. https://youtu.be/d0K1oaFGvuQ

I'd also recommend running Calva's Getting Started REPL. It will guide you both in getting a nice REPL workflow and introduce you to the Clojure language as well.

cheers peeps, played around with cursive and ultimately got too frustrated with how it tried to be smart with the bracket matching and would refuse to close out (not allowing me to do it for me), while not reliably loading the file into the repl, so coming back before i take the leap and experiment with vsc, would anyone recommend a tool that could get me something similar to the following (this is how my code works here...):

aka simple command line tool that takes an argument of a package, then lists what's in it, without any fluff, i can wire that up pretty easily

Without meaning to sound overbearing or rude, I feel like you are trying to shoehorn your way of working instead of trying to understand how things are. Perhaps if you give it a fair shot without wanting it to work the way you wish for it to work might bring out the best out of the tools?

Honestly, VSCode or Cursive work perfectly fine

The bracket matching is often quite helpful and most of us usually leave it on.

Why not check out the video where @U0ETXRFEW explains his workflow?

surely there's a program out there that just lists what a package provides without any extra action, i'm willing to experiment with new tooling

cursive i found was buggy, i have lots of tools built into my current environment so i'd like to use it to benefit from thoes

All you wish for is something that autocompletes? Is that it?

ideally documentation that's easily queryable using a command line tool that produces simple text and a way to send information to a repl

i can get the repl integration stuff sorted, but not the documentation front

if you are jacked into a REPL then simply typing in (doc name-of-func) should get you some documentation

Documentation is often written as a part of the function definition itself and is queryable. It is merely data on a function or a var

for instance

(defn add "adds two numbers" [a b] (+ a b))

Then, add can be queried later on the REPL

okay so what you're saying is that to get documentation it would be better to query the repl

anything to list what's available in a namespace?

Yes.

Look up `ns-publics)

so the user namespace gives you the tools to query this info, seems like it

The language is highly reflective

Data can be associated to a lot of entities, if not all and can then thus be queried

what i'm gonna do now is enumerate the available stdlib namespaces, pump them out into a file, have some code that gets that information very quickly into something i can use as a list, then that should be enough, cheers

Wait

Don’t run

I understand you have a plan

But my genuine advice is to go about learning the language first instead of fixating on your eventual outcome. My experience is that this approach causes a lot of people to flame out and give up

Clojure is genuinely different and takes a little getting used to

yea i get what you're saying, just for me to program i have to have tools to know what functions are available, ideally without asking google for help every two seconds, just trying to have a way to quickly get the names of what's out there so i can grep for what i'm looking for

for chicken scheme i have a huge list compiled by this one program that makes pressing command and / very easy to get that, then it goes deeper, i'll have a tool ready to query the repl in the future instead

appreciate the advice and am gonna play around with vsc next and the more standard workflows to experiment with the tutorials people have written then go from there

This is my VSCode setup

nice, seems very comprehensive

As you can see, I typed in the function map and hovering my cursor on it immediately fetched me the doc

I am not sure if you really need to rebuild tooling just for your purpose. I believe that a lot of what you seek is already there

<looks around to see if somebody else can help me convey what I am trying to say. I feel like i am failing>

nah i get it, chats to the repl to use doc to get info on the function under the cursor, what i'm looking for is a way to get information like this very quickly, but this is fine since i can chain the question of what's available in a namespace with some scripting, would you recommend any way to get all the available namespaces at a point in time?

aka i can just search the list and it fuzzy matches it and opens up documentation, so i'm 90% of the way through having something similar with what you just shared, cheers

all-ns

No arguments

(all-ns)

cheers!

no call-with-values in clojure i see

trying to write a cheeky little compose function

looks like the builtin offering's called comp 👀

Yes

No continuations in Clj

#!/usr/bin/env clojure

(defn -main "" []
  (print 123))

(-main)

do you recommend anything to format clojure, aside from schematic-format?

With acme I'd try to set up something to send a file or form over a socket to a running REPL process Same for doc for symbol at point, source for symbol, etc

thanks, playing around with automating gonrepl (found online)

Working in Clojure heavily relies on having a running REPL process and communicating with it. I recommend going over this section for useful references https://clojure.org/guides/repl/launching_a_basic_repl

#!/usr/bin/env clojure

(def format-module-name #(apply str % "/" %&))

(defn get-modules
  "Take the namespaces available in the toplevel and return the functions
   in fun formatted strings."
  []
  (map
   (fn [ns]
       (map (partial format-module-name (ns-name ns))
            (keys (ns-publics ns))))
   (all-ns)))

(map println (flatten (get-modules)))

might start by dropping the let

(defn get-modules [] (map (comp str symbol) (mapcat (comp vals ns-publics) (all-ns))))

No need to flatten

No need for format module either

Also

Again,I recommend not building this up as a set of CLI utilities but as a set of dynamic functions invoked from the REPL

Yes. Me too

And send all this code to your running REPL instead of running a clojure process each time

If you are using VSCode or Cursive, you wouldn’t need to build all this tooling to begin with

There's also a bunch of existing tooling you can build on. For example, both calva and cider share back end code in clojure

So don't try to shoehorn clojure to work with acme like acme does things. Make acme participate in how clojure does things instead (if you insist on using acme)

Thanks @UK0810AQ2.

Example https://github.com/clojure-emacs/orchard

ayyy, cheers

so cause of the sequences, all of this is lazy til it hits the function with side effects?

map is lazy, it returns a lazy sequence

But try working with data rather than side effects

cheers

thanks for your help guys, this works perfectly for me, got lein running as a server, now to implement some stuff to do exec, cheers

#!/bin/sh -e

alias exec_stdin="gonrepl -a :7182 2>&1"

get_namespaces() {
	exec_stdin <<EOF
(map
  (comp println str symbol)
  (mapcat (comp vals ns-publics) (all-ns)))

EOF
}

doc="$(get_namespaces | dmenu)"

[ -z "$doc" ] && exit 1

echo "(clojure.repl/doc $doc)" \
	| exec_stdin \
	| PlumbAndClean "/clojure/doc/$doc/"

https://clojure.org/api/cheatsheet This is also a great way to explore the std lib. But yeah, if you can't get a repl driven workflow going with Acme where you evaluate expressions in your source code I think you might bounce off Clojure because that is why most of us are here almost. It is where a lot of the joy and flow comes from imo. That is why everyone is concerned about reiterating that to you.

A quick google search resulted in a couple of possible avenues to explore: https://github.com/mkmik/acmeclj and http://blog.mattyw.net/blog/2013/10/17/clojure-programming-in-acme/

regarding acme: I think the best bet would be to start a socket repl and use nc to send code to it

# start the server in the terminal
justin@abjection:~$ clj -J-Dclojure.server.repl="{:port 5555 :accept clojure.core.server/repl}"
Clojure 1.10.1
user=> 

# send input with nc or any other cli program that writes to a socket:
justin@abjection:~$ echo '(+ 1  1)' | nc localhost 5555
user=> 2
user=> 
^C

@U051SS2EU this is perfect, thanks! I'm also trying to get an acme setup going, but what you provided is basically 99% there

I'm also planning to adapt the code from https://github.com/mkmik/acmeclj responsible for intercepting B2 clicks, and make it do echo '$selection' | nc localhost 5555 instead

this + starting the clojure socket REPL in win should get me an environment with an interactive REPL you can type in, and also a way to send code from any file into the REPL too

Don't really need anything extra - it just works!

that's how it should be, awesome

The missing part is "statefull transducer".

I see that. Thank you. This stuff is pretty hard to understand at first. Going to take a good bit of review to get the concepts to stick.

For some of us it is hard to understand at the upteempth time going through it. lol But I'll keep trying

@U0372PMDM60 just out of curiosity - if you don't have a lot of data and it's good enough to work only on your local machine; perhaps you can just 'save' the data to the browser localstorage?

That would be pretty close to your original idea of just writing the map to disk.

This could be as naive and simple as:

;; write
(.setItem js/localStorage "db" (pr-str @db-atom))

;; read
(reset! db-atom (cljs.reader/read-string (.getItem js/localStorage "db")))

And if you do decide to go the backend route, most recommend starting small with ring and maybe compojure. Here is a short tutorial that could help get ya started: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M97jWSKoV3k

Thank you both! I thought about using localStorage. Since I planned extending it with a backend at some point anyway maybe it's just time to get into that. Thank you for the video link. Looks promising!

If you get more ambitious on the backend, this example app uses the same technologies and goes more in depth: https://github.com/seancorfield/usermanager-example The author is very active on here (this whole community is quieter on the weekends just fyi).

Seems like a good reference. I think I can start from there. Thank you!

volatile!

https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Box.java

you should consider Box to be internal implementation, not public API

Indeed setting/getting on Box is about approx 10x faster than atom

You can simulate Box with a deftype + mutable field

Or an array