Ya, that's a configurable behavior.

Strange, though. If I just wanted the original text pushed to the side I would have simply put the cursor to the left of it before pasting. I don't see how selecting a region before pasting could indicate anything other than that the user wants text replaced.

Maybe I just lack imagination here...?

Emacs is all about infinite customization. The defaults are from the 50s, so they're not really intuitive to our modern era. I'm sure there was good reasons back then, but this is so far into the past, you need to undertand that even keyboards had different layouts and keys, screens were super small, there was no mouse, etc. So who knows why that's the default behavior they thought was most useful

But like I said, Emacs value is in customizing it to your liking. In Emacs, you can change absolutely everything, and you can very easily add whole new features. That's the selling point. Some people hate that. They don't want to customize anything, they want someone with good UX design skills to come up for them with the best set of features, shortcuts, etc. But others love coming up with their own.

Is there any threshold past which a change to Emacs' defaults would ever be made? Case in point.

If you like to customize things though, Emacs makes that really easy. Powerful customization that would require a whole team of paid developers in other programs can be made by one person as a side project in Emacs.

Hum.. in what sense? You're using Doom correct? Have you ever tried default Emacs 😋, Doom already changes like a million things.

So by using Doom, you are way way past that threshold already

If you re interested by the way, this is what you can put in your emacs config. I use Spacemacs, not Doom, so I'm not sure where exactly it should go with regard to Doom. I'd say if there's a place for added user config in Doom try it there.:

;; Make it so when text is selected, and you paste, it replaces the selected
  ;; text, instead of pasting before the selection and keeping the selected text.
  (delete-selection-mode 1)

Looks like it would go in ~/.doom.d/config.el

"The defaults are from the 50s" -- 1976, actually, @U0K064KQV

GNU Emacs dates from the mid-'80s.

But, yeah, it's weird stuff like the above that made me glad to leave Emacs behind and switch to a modern editor 🙂

I stand corrected.

@didbus Yeah, given what you said about Doom being customized to the nth degree, it is kind of strange that that paste-beside-instead-of-replacing-selected-text behaviour wasn't changed in Doom.

and thanks for this: "

;; Make it so when text is selected, and you paste, it replaces the selected
  ;; text, instead of pasting before the selection and keeping the selected text.
  (delete-selection-mode 1)

Ya I agree. In Spacemacs as well I had to change it myself. I wonder if that's the default Vim behavior? Because both Emacs and Doom try to re-implemented the Vim behavior

I actually wish there was a Spacemacs/Doom for Emacs but not focused on Vim/modal. But more focused on just providing a modernized well put together behavior.

Again, though, highlighting text (instead of just leaving the cursor beside it) is just an extra step that I can only imagine would ever be done to get a different behaviour than just pasting beside. i can't imagine why else anyone would do it.

@U0K064KQV Have you tried xah-fly-keys?

I REALLY almost went with that.

Might be the core part of something called Ergomacs?

I heard about it, didn't try. That one seems even more "weird" :p. Like it's trying a whole different thing. I'd just want a normal one.

I mean, it's okay, I use Spacemacs as a base, and have changed things to my liking. So now it's pretty normal

Yeah I guess it's not exactly what you were wanting.

Sounds amazing to me, though. Most common functions on easiest-to-reach keys. Loses mnemonicity though. lol Then again I'm not yet convinced Emacs commands are very mnemonic.

That's reason #2 I specifically DID like the idea of an EVil-based distro. (Is distro the right word?)

vim is pretty mnemonic, from what I remember from a 1 or 2 day crash course I took alongside my 1 or 3 week Emacs crash course last year.

Reason #1 was to reduce the amount of key chording (and pinky use) as much as possible.

For now I'm not using EVil in Doom yet though. lol I've already biten off a lot to chew for now.

Ya, I don't like the Emacs bindings, but I also don't like the Vim ones or modal editors in general

My favourite ones are the Spacemacs ones, with a few Emacs ones + my own mixed in

Spacemacs is different again??

I do use the Doom 'SPC .' binding for opening files. That seems pretty spacey.

Ya Spacemacs is basically like: Leader + sub-menu + action or sub-submenu, etc.

Where by default Leader is SPC

And things try to be organized in logical sub-menus.

So like all buffer commands will be under: SPC b

All major mode commands will be in: SPC m

All window command will be in SPC w

But the challenge with mnemonics is they always fall appart

Like SPC t is for toggles. But then where are the text editing commands?

So they're under SPC x

This seems like Doom, though. SPC leader, and I did notice submenus like you mentioned .

Its like, ok, x and text rhymes. And there's an x in text. But you kind of just have to learn it

By the way, if SpaceMacs isn't modal, how can it's leader be a single key?

Ya I'm pretty sure Doom copied the Spacemacs idea, that's what I thought

Spacemacs is modal by default. But you can use it in non modal. In which case ya, SPC is no longer the leader, instead by default on non modal it's M-m

So you just replace SPC by M-m. Or you can choose whatever leader you want

I found it because I thought SpaceMacs looked great, then I figured I should ask if there are any other 'distros', heard about Doom and xah-fly-keys (/Ergomacs?), and then found this post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/6pa0oq/quickstart_tutorial_for_emacs_newbies_with_doom/dkp1bhd/

I have ESC and M-m both as my leader. Since ESC doesn't do anything useful in Emacs, it's a nice way to have a single leader without modal

So if you don't like modal editors, then you are not using the SPC leader? You basically are using Mmmacs?

M-mmacs

M-m-macs

That's also a catchy name.

Haha lol ya. And since I've got it on Escape as well I thought about calling it Escapemacs lol

Well aren't you usually in a buffer that is editable, where SPC would just insert a space? I don't get how you would get much use out of SPC as a leader key. Wouldn't you have to use M-m most of the time?

You mapped Esc to M-m?

Oh ya, in non modal you can never use SPC as leader, well I mean... You could lol. Like you could make SPC SPC be insert a space, and SPC be leader. But I think you'd want to insert a space more often than you'd want to run a command

I did ya

The only downside is it doesn't work in terminal Emacs, because terminals are another thing from the 50s (or 70s?) which are so archaic that escape and alt were the same thing. Anyway. I don't use it on terminal. So I don't mind

Actually I think I'd like M-m more as a leader. It's easily reachable from home row finger placement and doesn't use either pinky.

Oh yeah. I just remembered the other thing on the top of my customization to-do list: Making Esc Esc Esc NOT destroy most of my window panes.

Ya M-m works pretty well. It seems I've naturally made is so for some commands I use M-m and others I use Esc. Like there are commands that when I run, my hands are rarely even near the keyboard, like opening a new file. So I seem to use ESC for that. While for things that are more editing where my hands are already near the center keys I'll use M-m

Doom has winner-mode on by default, but I can't get it to work,

Oh wait....no I solved that.

Or rather Heinrik, the very helpful creator of Doom, pointed out to me that for winner-mode actions I have to use the EVil version of the commands.

"I've naturally made is so for some commands I use M-m and others I use Esc" That sounds next-level. Nice.

Also M-x is the command pallete default keybinding, so M-m as the shortcut based variant makes sense

Ya, I've been wanted to try Doom, it looks well done. But I have no reason to leave Spacemacs, works great for me. And I'm a bit worried Doom in non-modal won't work as well

I'm not doing anything modal in it.

except opening a files with SPC .

I'm also always tempted to create my own config from scratch where I could choose every single shortcut to exactly what I want haha, but I know that would be a huge waste it time

Really?

I do it right after I launch it.

You have Evil turned off?

Like you don't use Vim shortcuts when editing, like say i to insert and esc to go back to navigating, and moving around with hjkl ?

I don't know if you can just turn EVil off, but I did discover (the hard way, while trying to undo with Ctrl-z, that C-z toggles it on and off while in a buffer

I am not doing anything vim in it

Oh interesting.

Except instead of Using C-x C-f to open a file, I am tending to C-z into EVil mode, then use SPC .

Well one day I'll give a twirl. The faster startup seems nice over Spacemacs

...then C-z back out of EVil mode. Hmm...sounds' inefficient now that I type it out.

I'm also doing it because eventually I do want to get into vimming. It just sounds good.

Oh...there is one weird thing I've come across

winner-mode is on by default, which is GREAT because having my window pane arrangement blown away by accidentally hitting Esc Esc Esc is insanely annoying.

But the normal bindings for it don't work in Doom. I think I mentioned that.

This was info straight form Heinrik in the help Discord:

"Also, for evil users its keys are on C-w u and C-w C-r If you're not using evil it, it has no keys by default. Something I'll need to fix Oh wait. It's on C-c w u and C-c w U"

I'm not sure where I would look up what other things like that exist. Maybe the EVil mode keys are all in a list somewhere (the documentation for EVil I guess). Maybe the list for non-EVil use of Doom is even harder to find.

Bedtime. Talk to you again sometime. If you do end up trying Doom, let me know! Now that would be interesting. A more advanced Emacs user and a noob with a bit of a head start trying to learn it at the same time. lol

Good night

In general, in Emacs, you can use C-h b and search for commands and it'll show you all the bindings

The C-h ... commands are the help commands. Really useful to learn them

So far the use of C-h I knew is that in Doom, if you can't see the whole menu after pressing the leader key (SPC), in order to see the other page(s) you have to press C-h and then j or k.

I have already suggested to Heinrik that being able to scroll through by just pressing SPC more times would be nice. 😉

Not sure how it works in SpaceMacs

Oh ya, I think that's from which key

Which is the plugin that shows the list of bindings following a leader key. Spacemacs also uses C-h but then it's n and p or j and k

SpaceMacs needs a chord first too? So clunky.

Ya, I think that's the which key defaults

The reason is that, C-h is kind of reserved. No one will ever overwrite C-h because it's the help keys

But say you made it SPC

What if there is a shortcut bound to say C-c SPC ?

If my suggestion gets implemented in Doom, it might have more claim to the Spacemacs name than Spacemacs does. lol

If you press C-c the list shows up, and typing SPC now cycles the list, but you want to execute C-c SPC, you're stuck

For example SPC SPC in Emacs brings up the command menu

Why does SPC SPC have to conflict with C-c SPC?

Anyways, it's probably a one or two liner for you to configure yours to cycle with SPC instead

It could just be that if you bring up the SPC menu, further SPCs scroll.

No I mean. When you press C-c it'll popup what other keys can follow it

and if you want that other think, you have to actually press C-c SPC

If one of those is SPC, but SPC is also now used to cycle the list?

*that other thing

Oh ya, for the SPC menu it could be done

It could even be in the list ("SPC <that other action> unavailable. Use C-c SPC to access")

I guess in Spacemacs they prefer having SPC SPC as a convenience for the command menu

Once you learn the keys, you don't really look at the list anymore so...

What about arrow keys?

Ya arrow keys would be really nice :p

Don't know about what a command menu. That's not tlike the thing that comes up when you press SPC in Doom?

But that's where my complaint was coming from. Both Spacemacs and Doom are from people who prefer Vim

So they hate arrow keys

My own shortcuts make heavy use of arrow keys

Pfft. They can still enable them for other people even if they never intend to use them.

That's actually a good idea for cycling the list with arrow keys, I might actually add that to my config 😝

I'm telling you, it sure tripped me up as a new user.

Haha, for sure. I mean Clojure doesn't try very hard to be user friendly and familiar and intuitive, but Emacs takes it next level 😝

A menu of options and not having to look up keys elsewhere was a big selling point for me picking Doom. Being met with a partial list I couldn't figure out how to scroll was so bad.

I have Ctrl, shift and alt and some combination of them + arrow keys setup for overall navigation of most things. So like I move my cursor around code with that, and I switch between windows with that, and I switch between buffers, etc.

I did reach for the right arrow key, and C-right, and M-right, and C-M-right, and all those combinations with Shift. One of them should have worked.

I have ESC TAB work like Alt+tab but for my buffers, etc.

Anyways, you'll see, eventually the fun begins when you start to understand how to change things to how you want them yourself :p

Sure, but for now I'll put my trust in Heinrik. lol

Once you know Clojure, learning Emacs Lisp isn't so hard. Since they're both a Lisp, Clojure already got you 90% of the way. That's what happened to me

Ya, for sure. Got to take small iterative steps

Nice.

It already sounds like you're starting with a lot on your plate at once 😝

I know I'm going against a bit of advice by going for CLJS before Clojure. Hope that doesn't hurt me too badly.

I mean I at least used vim for a couple of days, and Emacs for a couple of weeks, and did a ClojureScript program (just basically following the quick start guide and no tooling except maybe Leiningen), but that was all a year ago...maybe two.

I think it's fine. Its more about keeping up your own motivation.

I think part of my optimism is from trying out Blender instead of easier to learn tools for 3-D modelling and video editing and having been happy I went that way.

Facing too many challenges early on, sometimes it's demotivating. And people can get the impression things are complicated, don't work well, etc.

Haha, ya I had people say they learned it all together. Emacs, Clojure, ClojureScript, programming all at once. And they found it more fun like that

So it really depends on the individual

I'm cool with a steeper learning curve for better tools.

I had read the same thing about Blender...designed for maximum productivity in the end state, though harder to learn.

I wouldn't say fun, exactly, but I'm hopeful going with Emacs(+Doom) is worth it.

org-mode is a niiiiice bonus

Haha ya

For me Emacs did boost my productivity

Good to hear.

OK, really bedtime now. Nice talking to you.

Ya, while I'm actively focused on a project, I'm way more productive. Its in-between where I lose a lot of time changing things, trying things out, and customizing things. And once in a while you hit a bug or something temporarily broken. Which can be annoying, but they generally get fixed super quick

Or the fact you know there's always a way to do anything. Like today, I needed to use Emacs from the terminal and have the clipboard sync with the OS clipboard. I could have found some quick way around for my use. But I really wanted to figure out how to set it up

So it did take me 1 hour :p, but now I know, and I have it set up. So if I need this in the future it'll be fast

> When Delete Selection mode is enabled, typed text replaces the selection if the selection is active. Otherwise, typed text is just inserted at point regardless of any selection. try (delete-selection-mode 1)

So you are running your server through npx shadow-cljs watch <build-name> and you can view your web app in a browser right? With CIDER you can connect to the nREPL server that the shadow command starts. This lets you send code directly to your app from your editor. If say a function is not behaving how you expect, you can replace it as soon as you write it by sending it right to the app. This way you can either fix the issue or add some logging to help you fix it. You can also evaluate code and get the output in emacs too. For instance calling a function you just wrote with some test data to make sure it returns the expected output. No need to switch to your browser and test it just to make sure it's not broken.

I think it helps getting familiar with using the core functions, and to think about how to loop functionally

So I'd say ya, it's a decent way to learn some Clojure

I found 4clojure very challenging when I started learning. On the other hand Clojure Koans had a much gentler learning curve and I loved the experience. Just throwing it out there.

The Clojure Koans project was started in Relevance which is now Cognitect I think.

No, solving 4clojure problems which is basically logical

Clojure is the simplest thing to learn, i dont know why we were not introduced to such functional programming in earlier days of our teens, rather than OOPS bullshit

I learnt clojure fairly early and it saved me from way too much pitfalls in java and python 👍

Lucky you!

I have to agree. I see some people who find Clojure’s model hard to grok, but they seem to be programmers used to OOP. I think Java for example is fine, but Clojure is just so clear and simple by comparison. Everything feels like it is directly in your face instead of hidden.

for this type of task, using java interop along with a java library is probably the way to go. java interop in clojure is pretty good. having access to a wide range of performant and mature java libraries was one the main reasons clojure targeted the jvm

Yeah, I thought I'd have to dive into the interop 🙂 What's the standard way of assessing the "quality" of Clojure libraries? Is there a curated list of recommended libraries somewhere?

Well, third party libraries, that is 🙂

there’s https://www.clojure-toolbox.com/ for some definition of curated.

Oh great, thanks 🙂

> What’s the standard way of assessing the “quality” of Clojure libraries? I’ve seen a similar question frequently. I’ve always thought you had to just evaluate libraries individually. do other languages have a standard way of assessing the “quality” of their libraries?

Not sure in general, and people probably would need to build some familiarity of the eco system over time. Common Lisp has https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl for example, and there is something similar for Haskell.

Thanks for the help 🙂

wrap-reload is a middleware for the ring, isn’t it?

with deps.edn you can use an alias to specify development dependencies including extra source-paths

@U04V4KLKC, ok, so I was trying to do something like: https://practicalli.github.io/clojure-webapps/ring-compojure/reloading-the-application/ using deps.edn. They seem to have the -main and -dev-main .

so if you want to have similar workflow I would recommend to create two source root directories: src and dev then in deps.edn

{:paths ["src"] ;; common source code
 :aliases {
   :dev {:extra-paths ["dev"]
         :main-opts ["-m" "dev.core"]}}}

you also will need to have in dev directory core.clj with -main function (same function as -dev-main in your link)

Ahhh, ok, thats how you do it. Does that workflow makes sense? What workflow do you use?

(ns dev.core
  (:require [ring.adapter.jetty :as jetty]
            [ring.middleware.reload :refer [wrap-reload]]))

(defn -main
  "A very simple web server using Ring & Jetty,
  called via the development profile of Leiningen
  which reloads code changes using ring middleware wrap-reload"
  [port-number]
  (webserver/run-jetty
    (wrap-reload #'welcome)
    {:port  (Integer. port-number)
     :join? false}))

it is totaly fine to have this workflow for small applications but I can suggest to have a look at some component (or system) oriented libraries. such as https://github.com/weavejester/integrant or https://github.com/stuartsierra/component

they give you ability to choose in repl which combination of system’s parts you want to run. this will become more useful when you will start wrapping your head around testability and composability of your application

https://github.com/weavejester/integrant-repl also usefull link

Wow, lots to learn, probably should start simple and then work something like that in. Do you professionally develop in Clojure?

yes

Thats awesome, I do embedded C++ at work. Just began learning Clojure. Getting started is very challenging, there is just so many ways to do something.

welcome) it is challenging especially when you jump into clojure with completely different background but believe me - it will repay you ten times more) also I do recommend to read throw SICP book to get some understanding of sequences and operations on them

So far https://apps.ankiweb.net/ app and http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920034292.do have been my best friends. I have been getting up at 5:00 AM and learning Clojure, but should get to SICP soon.

So yes, I am hoping for 10X reward:slightly_smiling_face:

I'll just pop into this thread to say that you can avoid the complexities of reloading if you develop a very tight REPL-driven workflow, where you eval every single change directly into your running app.

I run my REPL for days, sometimes weeks, without restarting and hardly ever even needing to stop/start my Component system. But you do need to be careful to use #'handler instead of plain handler when wrapping middleware around your code (so you get the extra indirection that allows changes to be picked up immediately rather than being compiled in once).

Example of #' usage: https://github.com/seancorfield/usermanager-example/blob/master/src/usermanager/main.clj#L122-L133

@seancorfield I am so new at this that I am having hard time firing up the app in REPEL. So if I do this:

[I] /home/sporty/clojure/usermanager-example~> clj -m usermanager.main 3000
Starting up on port 3000 with server jetty
Exception: [SQLITE_ERROR] SQL error or missing database (table department already exists)
Looks like the database is already setup?
2020-05-27 11:41:00.129:INFO::main: Logging initialized @10153ms to org.eclipse.jetty.util.log.StdErrLog

[I] /home/sporty/clojure/usermanager-example~> clj -A:rebel
[Rebel readline] Type :repl/help for online help info
user=> (ns usermanager.main)
nil
nil
Syntax error compiling at (REPL:1:1).
Unable to resolve symbol: -main in this context
usermanager.main=>

You need to require the namespace before you can use functions from it

@U012GN57FJ9 Did you get it working in the end?

(! 530)-> clj -A:rebel
Downloading: com/bhauman/rebel-readline/maven-metadata.xml from clojars
[Rebel readline] Type :repl/help for online help info
user=> (require 'usermanager.main)
nil
user=> (in-ns 'usermanager.main)
#object[clojure.lang.Namespace 0x6ed1fdb7 "usermanager.main"]
usermanager.main=> (def system (new-system 8888))
#'usermanager.main/system
usermanager.main=> (alter-var-root #'system component/start)
Exception: [SQLITE_ERROR] SQL error or missing database (table department already exists)
Looks like the database is already setup?
2020-05-27 14:58:58.321:INFO::main: Logging initialized @128671ms to org.eclipse.jetty.util.log.StdErrLog
2020-05-27 14:58:58.398:INFO:oejs.Server:main: jetty-9.4.12.v20180830; built: 2018-08-30T13:59:14.071Z; git: 27208684755d94a92186989f695db2d7b21ebc51; jvm 14+36-1461
2020-05-27 14:58:58.460:INFO:oejs.AbstractConnector:main: Started ServerConnector@4d12e75d{HTTP/1.1,[http/1.1]}{0.0.0.0:8888}
2020-05-27 14:58:58.461:INFO:oejs.Server:main: Started @128811ms
#<SystemMap>
usermanager.main=> 

require then in-ns. require loads the code. in-ns moves you into a namespace (that should already exist via require)

@seancorfield, unfortinately, I can only work on clojure 6 AM to 8 AM EST. My day job, which is 8 to 6ish, is embedded C++, I am working on IoT low power instrument, but glancing at your comment, I think I should be able to get it.

I'm on Pacific time so your Clojure window is in the middle of my night 🌃 but if you ever find time to work on Clojure after work I'll likely be around. I used to do a lot of C++ in the '90s (I was on X3J16, the ANSI C++ Committee, for eight years back then).

@seancorfield, wow, was your jorney from C++ hard? by the way, I look at your dot files almost every day, I try to avoid layers of complexity and that is why I am trying to simply use clj.

I was lucky -- I'd done some Lisp and ML and other FP at university back in the '80s, then my professional arc was primarily COBOL, assembler, C, C++, Java, <more JVM stuff), Scala, Clojure -- so I've transitioned back to FP. If you've only/mostly done OOP (C++/Java), then it can be really hard to unlearn those "bad" habits in order to become fluent/idiomatic in Clojure.

Yes, the brain has to twist, but it seems like there are fewer but more applicable design patterns. Also, starting the server in REPL with the REPL prompt available is not as obvious. So I did a pull request to add the instructions to README.md , if it makes sense, maybe you can approve it.

Actually, looking through the code, the instructions are there, but for noob like me, having staring point identified in README.md will be helpful.

@seancorfield I have been studying the usermanager example, so using it as is, and starting it in REPL, will not reflect code changes upon reload, correct? How do you get the code to live reload? Is it possible to run command sequence to start the server in such a way that it will live reload?

@U012GN57FJ9 It does support live code changes. No reload required. You start it in the REPL, per the (updated) README / docstring that you saw, then you just eval changes into that REPL.

Should you be able to make the updates and hit reload on the browser and see the change? Or do I need to do something in the REPL?

You just eval the function and click to the next page in the browser (or reload if you want to see the change on the same page). I've tested this -- it does work.

It works because the example code uses #' for all the function references (for things that might change) rather than plain symbol names.

OK, yes, it works, I was doing something wrong, now it is working perfect.

user=> (doc partition)
-------------------------
clojure.core/partition
([n coll] [n step coll] [n step pad coll])
  Returns a lazy sequence of lists of n items each, at offsets step
  apart. If step is not supplied, defaults to n, i.e. the partitions
  do not overlap. If a pad collection is supplied, use its elements as
  necessary to complete last partition upto n items. In case there are
  not enough padding elements, return a partition with less than n items.

reduce-kv might also be useful!

same as this (fn [x] (contains? m x))

Figured out how to go about it with your example, thanks! Took a while to understand what you were getting at lol

middleware is legitimately tricky, but it’s pretty handy once you grok it. there’s also some deep similarities between middleware and transducers