Clojurians Log v2

Yep. We are polarizing

> I prefer Torvald's approach

(from the "other" thread) > I prefer Torvald's approach Torvald's https://lobste.rs/s/iq5xtw/linus_torvalds_working_on_hefty_linux#c_pdxjuf.

Why would difference of opinions be an issue?

Observing differences is not an issue.

@U0BHKM127SQ "fun will be over" meaning?

The book market is actually growing

@U0BHKM127SQ I think it's absolutely a tragedy that the people who need books the most (the young) are instead wasting their time doomscrolling. Having said that, why is it that we need to read books? What do we get out of them that other mediums cannot deliver? I have a few ideas, but I want to hear yours.

@U0BHKM127SQ I haven't seen the video yet, but it's not that deep. It'll vary from country to country, but it looks like fiction sales are up while non-fiction is taking a backseat (which makes sense, paper is pretty impractical for that anyway).

Just to jump in rq, letting the market decide is how we arrived in this, the darkest of timelines. 😥

Re: why books. There's a book about what reading does to your brain vs other forms of media that I read ages ago, Proust and the Squid. IIRC, the argument is basically that the habits required to stay focused while reading support a type of thinking that is desirable in (and constitutive of) functional society. Maybe that will no longer be the case in the future; maybe there'll be other forms of behavior (that we can pay a monthly subscription to support) that will come next!

> Based on how people talk about LLMs in the other channel, they seem to be having fun with it. Am I wrong? i agree with this. It’s very fun in the other channel.

A cursory glance at that other thread seems to indicate that people are reaching for LLMs to generate boilerplate instead of designing for reduced boilerplate. I have suspected this to be the case, but it also surprises me. The main reason why I use Clojure is for its unsurpassed ability to help me reduce incidental complexity and focus on the important problems. is the reason why I use Clojure, and my main takeaway from pretty much all of Rich's writing and talks.

A cursory glance at that other thread seems to indicate that people are reaching for LLMs to generate boilerplate instead of designing for reduced boilerplate. I have suspected this to be the case, but it also surprises me. Rich's writing and talks on reducing incidental complexity, and Clojure's fantastic ability to help me achieve that is the main reason why it's been my tool of choice for over a decade - and will be for the foreseeable future. Strange that this community would be so divided over this.

https://x.com/poteto/status/2109885001584292091?s=20 regarding the writing, here’s a person that ships ~2500 PRs a month, maybe up to 10,000 emphasizing that writing is thinking. And to never outsource this. She’s quite interesting. And might highlight how even for someone who is heavily into AI coding sees thinking and writing

@christian767 glad to hear you say this. I thought maybe I was overstating my case due to my inexperience since they seemed to disagree with me.

Re: why books. Often, I seek to learn from experts in a subject, in a distilled and logical way, where they are (hopefully) recompensed fairly for their efforts. For me, physical books are still the best means of doing so. They become part of my brain. They don't require a subscription nor electricity. No one is going to arbitrarily snatch away my collection (I hope!). That's my $0.02 at least.

Yea, to be clear, I was being sarcastic about the subscription fee! I also love reading, and have a soft spot for physical books. 🙂

you can use AI assisted coding and still be a skeptic

You certainly can, and there are valid reasons to do so, but I hope every sceptic asks themselves if they should.

you can use AI assisted coding and still be a skeptic

@christian767 @soltanzadehramin This is 100% based on personal experience bias, but unfortunately, a lot of companies/projects that use Clojure that I know personally, do not live the Rich Hickey values, and the codebases and engineering decisions made are quite opposite from what you hear in the talks/clojure slack. So I'm not shocked at all by this split; this aligns with what I saw in actual production work.

Yeah, I have of course also seen this. I guess I just expected a larger correlation between "uses Clojure" and "subscribes to Rich's ideas".

I expected that Venn diagram to basically be a single circle. How wrong I was, haha.

Yeah, I was very disappointed by this too, even before LLMs. This community always really inspired me and I had this expectation about oh wow this is how every engineer/job is in Clojure world, especially by how live and vibrant this slack is, but than you realize that those who do talks/engage in the community are just that passionate % of users