Fork me on GitHub
#admin-announcements
<
2015-12-07
>
mikethompson01:12:07

In the reagent and re-frame channels we sometimes want to ask a question of the channel. But this option is turned off by the clojurians admins. We can't use @ here or @ channel. Any chance this feature could be tuned back on? I realise, in theory, this feature can be abused, but is that much of a practical problem?

danielcompton02:12:02

@here in particular would be handy

oskarth06:12:07

@mikethompson: imo at-channel should never be used. You disturb hundreds of people doing other things - it's not a paid support forum. If someone is available to answer, they'll see your question.

oskarth06:12:43

95% of the times it is used it is abused and definitely not for everyone in that channel

mikethompson06:12:48

@oskarth: I disagree. There's a reason the feature exists. There are various usecases in various communities where it makes good sense.

mikethompson06:12:30

For various libraries, when you want to ask a question of the entire user base, it seems like a very reasonable thing to do. There's a lot of noise in some of the channels, so people zone out. To get general attention, this is the perfect tool, when you are a library author/maintainer.

oskarth06:12:47

Well, that's the reason the feature got removed anyway.

oskarth06:12:08

Exactly, it's too easy to abuse to get people's attention ;)

mikethompson06:12:22

So it was removed because abuse was happening?

mikethompson06:12:33

Or because people feared that abuse might happen?

mikethompson06:12:23

And, are you an admin, or are we holding a theoretical discussion?

oskarth06:12:45

I'm not an admin. It was enabled before.

mikethompson06:12:58

Okay, so I'd like to chat with an admin.

oskarth06:12:14

It is a practical problem.

mikethompson06:12:17

Trust me, I get the pros and cons

oskarth06:12:19

Ok I'm out

oskarth06:12:41

You asked, I explained what I think most people's position are. Try to understand the rationale instead of getting hostile because you can't command the attention of everyone at a whim.

mikethompson06:12:06

I was hostile?

oskarth06:12:22

Good bye. Good luck.

mikethompson06:12:57

Sorry, at this end it feels like I'm just matter of fact. I acknowledged the possible issues with @ channel and @ here in my original question.

trancehime06:12:48

It feels like if it was enabled before but currently disabled, the rationale behind why it was disabled must at least have some form of merit.

trancehime06:12:43

I won't make any assumptions here on out because I'm new to this community, but that's just what I'm seeing as an outsider

mikethompson06:12:57

Yeah, could be. I'm just seeking clarity from the admins. If the concern is "fear of abuse" I would ask that it be reinstated. When it was turned on, I personally never saw any abuse. On the other hand, if there were indeed cases of abuse which lead to it being turned off, then turning it back on clearly won't be an option. I'm wondering which it is.

oskarth07:12:55

As I said before, it is a practical problem for anyone who has been on chats long enough. I'd estimate I've been at-channeled 20 times here, and the only time it has ever been relevant is in a private group of less than 10 people talking about organizing an event. It doesn't make any difference whose experience this is.

mikethompson07:12:41

Right, so the admins removed it because there *was* abuse?

oskarth07:12:42

All those times it's either someone spamming what they think everyone should care about, or a beginner who is over anxious to get a reply to his question.

oskarth07:12:22

This is empirical. If you don't want to listen to that, that's your choice.

hans07:12:02

mikethompson: i'm also completely opposed to enabling that feature. this is not a paid support thing, you're not entitled to anyones reaction.

hans07:12:21

mikethompson: if there'd be notifications for @all, i'd leave a channel pretty quickly.

oskarth07:12:52

Thank you. Was beginning to regret replying with common sense. I'll pass the torch on to you, @hans ;)

mikethompson07:12:58

Indeed, that would constitue abuse

mikethompson07:12:42

So I was asking if there were real cases of that which had lead to the feature (which used to be on) getting turned off. Truely, I do understand the POTENTIAL problems. I am wondering if, within this smaller community, there had ACTUALLY been cases of it.

hans07:12:51

mikethompson: i'm done sharing my opinion on this.

trancehime07:12:04

@mikethompson - i believe they had already been stating every day example of the abuse here

trancehime07:12:00

Eh... If you're looking for proof from the administration, I guess we'll have to wait for that.

mikethompson07:12:40

Yeah, my question was always to the admins. They will know the real background.

hans07:12:20

this is not a dictatorship anyway. if "the admins" were to make stupid decisions, then this place would empty itself quickly.

jaen10:12:32

Yay, a flamewar ❤️ And more seriosuly - I wouldn't have problem with @channel (especially if it can be scoped to a group of people like maintainers or something) because it doesn't really pain me too much to open the tab, mark it as read and carry on as if nothing happened if it doesn't interest me. But I can understand the position of people that want to have it disabled, maybe they are more easily annoyed and disturbed and @channel is of little value unless you're making an announcement or something. Also, I don't have a smartphone so I can just close the Slack tab and don't be bothered at all, it might be more annoying for people with Slack app hounding them when they're off. I think I remember back when it was enabled someone used it to make announcements and people were non-plussed for some reason, so that might be your proof - it used to be enabled, people didn't like it, it was disabled.

jaen10:12:11

Also, what's @here? Currently online users in a channel?

mikethompson10:12:02

If there has been annoying abuse, then I have no problem whatsoever with it being turned off. Its just that I've been in clojurians since the very beginning and I can't ever remember a problem in the 7 odd channels I follow. The clojure community seems to conduct itself pretty well. Hence my question (to admins please): has there actually been cases of abuse which caused the feature to be turned off OR was it simply fear of abuse which was caused the change on policy?

val_waeselynck15:12:10

@mikethompson +1

alexmiller15:12:42

I am joined to many of the channels on here and have never seen an abuse of the wider at-mentions

alexmiller15:12:18

that said, I am an admin on other Slack's and routinely restrict that feature to admins to head off that possibility

alexmiller15:12:40

so it seems very likely to me that this is the case

alexmiller15:12:04

(I am not an admin here)

roberto16:12:56

I haven’t had this issue on clojurians either. Maybe it is an issue in some of the channels I’m not subscribed to. In other slack rooms I’m subscribed too, normally this is brought up, and when people who abuse this feature are called out on it, they normally abide by the rules.

gadfly36116:12:35

I also havent experienced any abuse, and, especially for library specific channels, these kinds of notifications can be really helpful when used sparesely. For example to have the user base aware a new release candidate is out and would appreciate feedback. I wouldn't view that kind of alert as abuse because it is a very targeted, and opt-in audience :)

seancorfield17:12:06

Late to the "flamewar" — I’ll discuss with the other admins (I’m one) — but it’s worth pointing out that Slack is designed for (small) company teams where features like @here and @channel are much more reasonable and useful. If we could restrict the feature by channel, I’d be open to enabling it for those small channels that requested it but with ~4,000 people here, I’d rather keep those features off.

seancorfield17:12:34

In some of the other eight Slacks to which I currently belong, I have seen abuse, usually by one or two individuals who believe it is their "right" to get attention whenever they want. Whilst such folks can easily be ejected, they’ve usually already annoyed the heck out of the thousands of people around the world whose phone lit up at 4am and woke them up!

seancorfield17:12:41

To @mikethompson I’ll say: if you want control over those features and believe they would be useful to the Reagent / Re-Frame community, you would always start a free Slack for that community and see how that works out.

seancorfield17:12:06

There’s no doubt that those features work best for small, focused teams that typically do need to get everyone’s attention. I’m in a Technical Advisory Group Slack for a product and they have those features enabled and use them sparingly. @here on its own isn’t too bad since it only pings people who are "available" but @channel hits everyone regardless of timezone / availability and that gets really annoying, really quickly in a larger channel.

alexmiller19:12:29

re release announcements, pinning can be used for that too