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2015-06-05
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placeboza07:06:34

This is why I'm not the boss

placeboza07:06:22

I get too frustrated with people who just don't care

mccraigmccraig09:06:08

@placeboza: perhaps you should be the boss so you can not employ people who don't care ?

placeboza09:06:40

@mccraigmccraig: lol, true, but that brings me to another reason I'm not the boss: I'm a techie with very poor business skills - and very little passion in that direction. TL;DR: Lots of crazy ideas, but no business skill.

placeboza09:06:11

I do want to put more effort into hobby projects though, I've been stagnating for years now

placeboza09:06:28

not too badly though, I mean, I can use Clojure a bit šŸ˜›

mccraigmccraig09:06:44

@placeboza: ha, then you should go work for a company where the boss cares that everyone cares, or you should start such a company with such a person

placeboza09:06:10

agreed . I used to work for such a company. And then the boss demoted himself šŸ˜ž

mccraigmccraig09:06:51

i/you/we are fortunate to be in a career/industry/century where this is possible !

placeboza09:06:09

true, and I wouldn't change my line of work for the world. Been a coder since I was 12, and never doubted it.

placeboza09:06:22

Only explored why

placeboza09:06:54

I find it fascinating that more than half the population is incapable of coding at a decent level

placeboza09:06:07

and it's little to do with coding

placeboza09:06:16

and everything to do with mental modelling

placeboza09:06:17

btw, I mean incapable of learning to code at a decent level

placeboza09:06:30

statistically

mccraigmccraig09:06:47

you have a source for that stat ?

placeboza09:06:57

knew you would ask šŸ˜„ .. let me try dig it out

mccraigmccraig09:06:30

i've always assumed that a large part of it is lack of interest in learning... much as i will never play golf well because i have a total lack of interest in putting in the time and effort to learn how

placeboza09:06:07

turns out the lack of interest is only a small part of it

placeboza09:06:27

but in some cases, it looks the same. cos when someone struggles with it, and gives up, it may appear to be just a lack of interesting

placeboza09:06:36

e.g. my wife

placeboza09:06:47

tried the simple aptitude test on her

placeboza09:06:59

and she couldn't bring herself to finish it even

placeboza09:06:07

it was like torture for her to try work it out

placeboza09:06:21

I still have hopes that she can learn web design

placeboza09:06:36

Btw, I used to have the simple aptitude test similar to what Jeff is talking about .. his one there looks a bit different to me

placeboza09:06:58

but I think it's just copied from that paper

placeboza09:06:01

trying to find the one I used

tjg09:06:33

Interesting! As a tutor, I read these studies trying to figure out learning pitfalls, to somehow negate them so learners can indeed learn. simple_smile

placeboza09:06:49

yup, interesting angle

placeboza09:06:20

I used to think anybody could learn to code. and I still think it might be technically possible, but now I accept that the gap might be too large

placeboza09:06:48

of course when I say 'code' I don't mean writing an if statement

placeboza09:06:58

I mean being able to mentally model a problem and solution and code it out

placeboza09:06:51

thinking now of Chris Granger's latest post about coding vs comprehension & composition

tjg09:06:47

Like... in:

int a = 10;
int b = 20;
a = b;
what does = mean? It's not mathematical equality. It means assignment, in a peculiar programming notation. One reason I try to justify teaching with a Lisp.

placeboza09:06:08

sure, but even if you get it wrong, you can get the question right

placeboza09:06:13

cos they aren't marking based on correct answers

placeboza09:06:20

they mark based on consistent interpretation

placeboza09:06:35

wrong model = wrong answer, but always consistent = +1

tjg09:06:44

Ah, ok... makes sense. I'd better read more carefully, thanks.

placeboza09:06:30

yip, it's about making a consistent mental model

placeboza09:06:33

not getting it right

placeboza09:06:08

either the person can't be consistent, or can't make a model in their mind at all

placeboza09:06:18

(when they fail I mean)

tjg10:06:45

Yeah, it's really hard. I tried teaching two coworkers how SQL worked. That first class failed. - Turns out one of them really wants to know the fundamentals, because she hates swiss-cheese knowledge. So since Feb, we fought our way up from NAND gates... to machine-language... to how Unix processes & inodes work... to TCP/IP stack. It will be about two weeks before we start performing programming in a high-level language. - Turns out both people have veerrrry different interests. Had to split the class. Because the other one really just wanted to make a fancy HTML signature and that's it! šŸ˜›

tjg10:06:26

And so I look at traditional ways of learning, and can't see how they work. It's so one-size-fits-all... and they filter out those who don't learn that way.

placeboza10:06:02

yah... I remember reading something else about that you might like, just need to remember where

placeboza10:06:08

about different people learning in different ways

placeboza10:06:00

not the visual/auditory whatever

placeboza10:06:05

more about the what/how/why

tjg10:06:25

Ah cool, was it maybe a Bret Victor talk, or one of the Alan Kay ones? The Humane Representation of Thought was hugely influential to us.

placeboza10:06:10

no but that looks interesting too

placeboza10:06:03

can't find the one I'm thinking of šŸ˜•

tjg10:06:22

To use more of the brain's resources, we gave personalities to logic gates. (`and` is kind of a jerk. or is a hippie. not likes to disagree. or can often be so love & peace but it often relies on and to do its dirty work.)

placeboza10:06:49

easier to remember

placeboza10:06:51

and relate to

tjg10:06:42

Then we talked about some meetings, where I'd be like xor -- I'd be really suspicious if she and someone else agreed. So I'm only happy if they disagreed.

tjg10:06:35

Meetings actually kinda work as another example of logic gates, because we're so used to human interactions... šŸ˜›

placeboza10:06:05

seems nuts that you have to go to that level before people can understand it though, but I never cease to be amazed at that gap

placeboza10:06:09

sounds effective

placeboza10:06:58

is that person going to start with ASM language?

placeboza10:06:11

the one with the swiss cheese concern

tjg10:06:44

Yeah, after building our dinky little CPU (using http://www.nand2tetris.org/ book), she simulated the control unit, so she turned assembly statements into machine language, then she fed it to the ALU (if it was an ALU thing)...

tjg10:06:27

And since it gets boring having long trips to RAM, she figured out little ways to save time, like post-it notes (caches).

tjg10:06:46

(That is, she played the role of the control unit.)

tjg10:06:16

Then she could hire people, which I guess is like pipelining or optimism or something.

tjg10:06:08

Ah, misread your question. We've moved up past ASM now.

tjg10:06:42

(We didn't do that much with ASM.)

tjg10:06:02

After networking, we'll do paradigms. Then hopefully something like Clojure, or whatever language she's interested in using.

tjg10:06:34

BTW, ASM notations are kinda horrible. We played a bit with different notations. One was EDN. That seemed to work, even though I expected it to be confusing.

tjg10:06:51

And BTW, she knows way more about this low-level stuff than I did before the classes. Teaching really boosted me as a programmer. Like, I'm incomparably better now. (Not that I'm necessarily particularly good, just better. simple_smile ) It's like, I was such a superficial programmer who didn't understand my own mind's resources.

mccraigmccraig10:06:05

placeboza: thanks : i hadn't seen that before... would love to see something about what other aspects of life the inability to form consistent models does/doesn't affect, and whether the inability observed relates only to models of syntax or spreads wider too, to models of the physical world

placeboza11:06:41

cool @tjg . Nothing like teaching someone to improve yourself, eh?

placeboza11:06:46

mccraigmccraig: Yup that also crossed my mind yesterday when I read Chris Grangers post about comprehension/composition vs coding (about other fields that require the skill of modelling things in your mind)

placeboza11:06:54

@tjg Very cool that you're succeeding at teaching people this stuff, when they probably wouldn't have succeeded in a traditional course

placeboza11:06:36

It does require someone who is tenacious about taking it all the way

placeboza11:06:00

both teacher and student

mj_langford15:06:27

are there colleges teaching in clojure that anyone knows about? Other interesting functional languages?

mj_langford15:06:45

Specifically ones that teach many of of them, or some in depth/

teslanick15:06:21

There was a professor who wanted to test out teaching intro CS in clojure. University of MN Morris, I think.

teslanick15:06:38

Don't remember her name.

fhanreich15:06:23

Elena Machkasova

mystery15:06:53

Uh, I only took this on Coursera, but Dan Grossman from the University of Washington teaches a Programming Languages class that does SML, Racket, and Ruby with a functional bent. Idk how representative of the rest of their curriculum that is, or if the actual PLT classes they have there use the same langs...

mj_langford15:06:09

I know penn has a longstanding haskell one

iref15:06:03

I don't know about any courses in Clojure, but I can recommend Dan Grossman course on Coursera. Ruby part isn't that interesting (at least it wasn't to me). SML and Racket parts are pretty good. There is also Eric Meier's course, that teaches FP with Haskell https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-functional-programming-delftx-fp101x

mj_langford15:06:32

Iā€™m asking because a sibling is intrested in going to universities with relevant programs, and is looking to transfer now

mj_langford15:06:42

Iā€™ll check out him for real world stuff

arrdem16:06:49

UT has a haskell class

mj_langford16:06:40

Thatā€™s the one in Austin?

mj_langford16:06:48

Do they have more than just 1?

arrdem16:06:50

Nope. Prof cook does Haskell for his Pl theory class and that's all the fp we have afaik

charliegriefer16:06:52

+1 for the Coursera FP course by Dan Grossman.

charliegriefer16:06:47

The SML and Racket portions are great to learn FP concepts. Agree 100% with @iref regarding the Ruby part. Luckily, that part was last simple_smile

mystery16:06:16

I mean, the Ruby part sorta tied some stuff together. I think the Racket portion of the course is what really shines (and is why I'm doing Clojure today), but the Ruby stuff was illustrative...I think maybe it just shouldn't have been the last language he did?

mystery16:06:36

And, like, for a programmer coming into the industry...like, they're probably not gonna have an FP job so understanding how to apply FP principles in more imperative languages is maybe helpful? I dunno.

charliegriefer16:06:10

Maybe. Itā€™s all subjective, of course. For me, I just wanted to learn FP concepts and work in FP. So the ML and Racket portions really held my interest.

charliegriefer16:06:35

I struggled with the Ruby because it just wasntā€™ something that I was interested in.

mj_langford16:06:42

I know a lot of places do the ā€œscheme/scip as class 1ā€ trick

iref16:06:57

Yeah, it all depends on person previous experience and expectations. Also I think prof. Grossman assume that most people know Java/C++ or other OO language, so he didn't introduce that many new concepts and as @mystery said, he mostly used to show some advantages/disadvantages of OOP vs FP.

iref16:06:00

Also writing your own interpreter of small arithmetic language in Racket was super fun. I finally got some details behind closures.

tjg17:06:54

@placeboza: Actually it's me who wouldn't have succeeded in a traditional course. simple_smile For example, I would've dropped Cornell CS 2110: https://gist.github.com/tjg/e3f053b1522e5b4c0c85 [Warning: probably boring read.] The people I tutor were excluded... for more/less the same reason why we have the Clojurians Slack Code of Conduct.

arrdem17:06:15

@annapawlicka: would a meta channel for talking about culture stuff be off color?

annapawlicka17:06:32

@arrdem: what do you mean by culture stuff?

akiva17:06:20

Iā€™m already slightly concerned about the proliferation of specialty channels. Iā€™m curious, for example, as to why we have an #C03RZGPG3 and #C03RZGPG1. Seems they serve the same purpose really.

akiva17:06:52

We already have a number of channels popping up covering specific libraries which I think are causing a famine of chatter in #C03S1KBA2 itself.

arrdem17:06:36

@annapawlicka: in this particular instance Iā€™m just fishing for a less hostile environment than twitter to try and get other peoples opinions on the strangeloop/urbit drama. maybe just not worth it to talk about due to being contentious (apparently). idk.

staypufd18:06:41

marred what happened with SL?

arrdem18:06:10

canā€™t talk standup. brb.

seancorfield18:06:49

If folks want to discuss the strangeloop/urbit "drama", I strongly suggest it be done either in a private group with just those parties who are interested in it or in a specific channel that has no @logbot in it.

dnolen18:06:47

I honestly donā€™t think it needs to be discussed at all in any of the Clojure slack channels.

dnolen18:06:53

itā€™s not relevant to Clojure.

seancorfield18:06:48

That would be my preference too. Itā€™s just not relevant to Clojure.

arrdem18:06:17

Copy that.

arrdem18:06:09

Iā€™m having a hard time imagining anything good coming from this conversation anyway. Apologies for bringing it up.

akiva18:06:31

I will never, ever forgive you, @arrdem. [crosses arms; looks severe]